Does Jnana yoga lead to Karma and Bhakti yoga?

[Persipnei]

Notice the question mark, it's not a statement. It's my personal experience after something clicked when I was reading the Bhagavad Gita.

I only recently can give it a name, but I've been on the Jnana path for a long time.My ego got totally in the way, though, for ages.

Recent events and experiences have changed me a lot and while reading the Bhagavad Gita I realised I am doing way more Karma yoga now (making the "correct" choice, doing the "correct" action).

I was always a rational man and it took me a long time to accept the possibility of something bigger than materialism, but since I did I can see God/Shiva/"..." more and more in everything. Today I realised those moments feel like a heart opening ... calling. Once you understand the divine, how can you not be devoted to it! I can see myself actually making an altar and for me that is very, very weird.

 

I suppose the people on this forum are on the Jnana and/or Karma path, since that's mostly what Leo's channel is about. I wonder if any of you had the same conclusion: If you dig deep enough, the moment comes where you will start behaving according to Dharma "because ... duh" and if you want it or not, you are gonna throw yourself in the mud before the eyes of the One.

[electroBeam]

You're only a real mystic when you chuck away all that Bhagavad Gita, and jnana and bhakti and kriya and the universe is love crap and just BE

 

[Persipnei]

That's the next step 

 

Edit:

I was too fast. It's this step!

@electroBeam

What else is "doing Dharma with full devotion" than Being?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Persipnei

[electroBeam]

4 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

That's the next step 

 

Edit:

I was too fast. It's this step!

@electroBeam

What else is doing Dharma with full devotion than Being?

Don't mind me, I'm just doing my Dharma

 

[Moksha]

Jnana is the first step on the path of knowledge. Bhakti and Karma are the wise applications of this knowledge, or the love of God and of everyone else. Some of the people here have taken the Jnana path, and concluded that they are now awake. They have not yet learned Vijnana, or to cook on the fire of their knowledge.

One who has merely heard of fire has ajnana, ignorance. One who has seen fire has jnana. But one who has actually built a fire and cooked on it has vijnana.

- Ramakrishna

[electroBeam]

6 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Jnana is the first step on the path of knowledge. Bhakti and Karma are the wise applications of this knowledge, or the love of God and of everyone else. Some of the people here have taken the Jnana path, and concluded that they are now awake. They have not yet learned Vijnana, or to cook on the fire of their knowledge.

One who has merely heard of fire has ajnana, ignorance. One who has seen fire has jnana. But one who has actually built a fire and cooked on it has vijnana.

- Ramakrishna

And the one who sees that ajnana, jnana and vijnana are all just different, finite flavors of the infinite has bestana

 

[Moksha]

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

And the one who sees that ajnana, jnana and vijnana are all just different, finite flavors of the infinite has bestana

Not just different, there is a progression in states of Consciousness that Ramakrishna is pointing to. Everything is just an illusion though, right? Be the bestana illusion you can be 

[electroBeam]

15 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Not just different, there is a progression in states of Consciousness that Ramakrishna is pointing to. Everything is just an illusion though, right? Be the bestana illusion you can be 

yep, but could it be that that progression was pretending to happen/not absolute aswell, and it only seems absolute because consciousness is so groundless that if the progression occurred in a different way we wouldn't be able to tell the difference and would be saying the same thing about that progression.

Well the human form is finite, and that progression's got some human form stuff intertwined in it, especially the helping "others" part(can an enlightened rock help others on its spiritual journey), so as mental masturbationy it sounds, there might be something to it.

[Persipnei]

31 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Some of the people here have taken the Jnana path, and concluded that they are now awake.

Yes. I have seen that  

It's a very interesting journey and it seems we all take make it in our own unique way.

[Moksha]

@electroBeam As I see it, the advantage of being a higher state of Consciousness is that you suffer less, and love others more. Recognizing that there is no "you", and there are no "others", is only a partial realization. God is in the human form, illusion that it is, and for that reason, it deserves to be honored.

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

@electroBeam As I see it, the advantage of being a higher state of Consciousness is that you suffer less, and love others more. Recognizing that there is no "you", and there are no "others", is only a partial realization. God is in the human form, illusion that it is, and for that reason, it deserves to be honored.

Yep, interesting. I think that's what most "others" aim for. Definitely agree that those things are partial realizations.

Yet what I aim for is actually getting epistemic things right first and foremost, rather than increasing love or reducing suffering. So spotting deception, making sure I truly know what I think I know(whether thats a thought/ideology, state of consciousness, insight or realization) and always being open to other possibilities to make sure I'm not closing myself off to what might actually reveal a deeper truth. I've always got lots of karma, no matter how many realizations I've had, and there's always stuff to spot, always areas where I've just noticed I'm wrong or incorrect about something, or where others are incorrect about something, even people like ramana, and you can prove that to yourself through highly rigorous letting go, meditation or contemplation. That's really fun for me, its like solving maths problems, except they are epistemic knowings. And this process does lead you to being more loving, because that's whats true.

I don't think that's enlightenment TBH, I think that's just truth. Its definitely the process Leo follows though, and half of my influence came from him.

[Moksha]

7 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

So spotting deception, making sure I truly know what I think I know(whether thats a thought/ideology, state of consciousness, insight or realization) and always being open to other possibilities to make sure I'm not closing myself off to what might actually reveal a deeper truth. I've always got lots of karma, no matter how many realizations I've had, and there's always stuff to spot, always areas where I've just noticed I'm wrong or incorrect about something, or where others are incorrect about something, even people like ramana, and you can prove that to yourself through highly rigorous letting go, meditation or contemplation. That's really fun for me, its like solving maths problems, except they are epistemic knowings. And this process does lead you to being more loving, because that's whats true.

Love this, and I agree 100% that unrelenting honesty, sincerity, and courage are required. Ultimately, it is about seeing clearly, and systematically dissolving those things about "you" that offer temporary satiation, but fail to deliver enduring happiness and peace.

Yet what I aim for is actually getting epistemic things right first and foremost, rather than increasing love or reducing suffering.

Saved this for last, because of synchronicity. I just read this today:

The Buddha never indulged in metaphysics. His concern was relentlessly practical: life is full of suffering, the cause of that suffering is selfishness, and selfishness can be removed by practicing the Eightfold Path. Anything else is a distraction. On what lay beyond the impermanent world of ego and change, his attitude was simple, "First go there, then you will see for yourself."

[electroBeam]

10 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Saved this for last, because of synchronicity. I just read this today:

The Buddha never indulged in metaphysics. His concern was relentlessly practical: life is full of suffering, the cause of that suffering is selfishness, and selfishness can be removed by practicing the Eightfold Path. Anything else is a distraction. On what lay beyond the impermanent world of ego and change, his attitude was simple, "First go there, then you will see for yourself."

Lol! Nice one!

[Persipnei]

10 hours ago, electroBeam said:

yep, but could it be that that progression was pretending to happen/not absolute aswell, and it only seems absolute because consciousness is so groundless that if the progression occurred in a different way we wouldn't be able to tell the difference and would be saying the same thing about that progression.

I'd dare to argue humanity has mostly progressed in the opposite way, by becoming more and more attached to this world AND as a species we think we are going the right way: "technology will 'save' us to become more complete" is this generation's new mantra, while I can feel this will just generate another layer of maya and thus devolve our species even more. So, I a sense, progression occurs in different ways, but you can only see the direction coming from your perspective.

 

@electroBeam @Moksha 

You both seem to have taken quite some steps on the path and seem to have a different approach. If feels to me that Jnana/metaphysics/searching for Truth has more pitfalls (ego backlash opportunities), especially for a (still) way too active brain like mine, fixated on new information. The more I "feel" the less I need an explanation.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Persipnei

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, Persipnei said:

If feels to me that Jnana/metaphysics/searching for Truth has more pitfalls (ego backlash opportunities), especially for a (still) way too active brain like mine, fixated on new information. The more I "feel" the less I need an explanation.

I resonate with you. Since childhood, I have had the blessing, and the curse, of a highly curious mind. I can't help but hope that some day metaphysics, quantum mechanics, and spirituality converge into a cosmic model that explains everything. I love people like Donald Hoffman, Eben Alexander, and Dean Radin, who are scientists working toward a unified model.

That said, I agree that there is a danger here. The Buddha saw it, and I believe this is why he refused to be distracted by it. Ultimate truth cannot be conceptualized. Even the best model will only be a map of the territory. The trap, which I have seen with some of our own brothers and sisters here, is to mistake those aha! moments for awakening. Awakening is the direct realization of God, absolutely free from thought. It is easy to mistake one for the other, until you have experienced both.

[electroBeam]

IME you can try to be a good Samaritan all you want and refuse the intellect because your mind is too curious and active, yet you won't win, the force is too strong, and you'll have to learn to go with the flow of it, rather than reject it. So contemplation, insight, meditation it is, just learn to use it properly rather getting lost in thought.

I like metaphysics, the sort of philosophical/idealistic type(quantum mechanics is too dry for me) yet more as a force of creative expression and design rather than a truth yielding mechanism. I find that you can try and just focus on removing karma all day, but eventually the creative mind will get sad and depressed that its creative energy isnt being let out, and so thats when the metaphysics comes into it. Just as the buddha/Moksha warned, getting lost in it is a distraction, any metaphysics beyond "ejaculating" creative energy and expressing compassion tends to be a waste of time. And waste of time = ego deception/you just got played by your karma.

[Moksha]

It is possible to swim upstream, against the current of the mind. The more you do, the stronger your muscles become, and the less pull the current has on you. It takes absolute discipline, and for most it is a lifelong journey, but there is joy in the swimming. I wrote a poem about this, that I will maybe share some time.

Quantum mechanics and astrophysics fascinate me, because they illustrate the limits of conventional reality. We live within this narrow band of perception, but when we go deeply to the micro- or macro-levels, reality begins to fray at the edges. It is obvious that spacetime is not absolute, but malleable, and relative, to the perceiver. It is no longer this or that, but from which perspective? This is where I see science starting to merge with spirituality.