Mod Abuse of Power,what should you do if you sense that a mod is biased against you?

[Preety_India]

What are the options for users if they sense that a certain moderator here is biased against them. And what if this biased mod is constantly looking to give warning points, looking for that one error you make to catch you in it. 

 

Mods are not perfect. They are just like users here. As such they shouldn't have to feel or act privileged. Abuse of their powers or privileges can easily happen. 

Are mods given the power to directly ban a user? What if the mod bans out of Jealousy or personal vendetta? How will the user this to Leo if the user is banned by the mod already? 

Has @Leo Gura considered this?

This needs serious discussion. 

Also Leo does not bother to read complaints from users. 

Are moderators here to be trusted completely? 

In the absence or reluctance of Leo, can we approach any mod for the misbehavior of another mod? 

 

This website or forum runs because of users. As such I think users should not have to constantly feel on edge or get treated as disposables. 

If we as users have grievances we should be able to safely discuss them with a particular person/Leo /mod here. 

What if you approach a mod, and they don't bother to respond or give a very generic response and shut down your concerns. 

Are forum members aware of moderator power abuse and what are their experiences and suggestions? 

Bias and prejudice is a pretty common issue with many people and this includes moderators as well. 

Moderators shouldn't be exempt from wrong or unfair behaviors. 

In retrospect I think @Leo Gura ends up giving a lot of control to moderators here.

And this can easily spiral out of control.

These are my suggestions/feedback. 

I think decisions like Banning a user or too many warning points should be decided by all mods and @Leo Gura collectively. Also if a user is given multiple warning points or if their points are adding up, maybe the user should have an option to speak to Leo and clear the situation in conjunction with the particular mod. 

If the same mod is constantly giving warning points each time, maybe this should also be addressed by @Leo Gura.. Or the mod should be told to inform Leo if they are giving warning points to the same user again. This can prevent moderator abuse of power.

I hope this place doesn't get ruined by abuse of power. 

Like I said, forum members need to be respected and not be treated as disposables. We have every right to be here as long as we are following the rules and making this place a productive place. 

Also my other suggestion is to open a general grievance thread where members having conflicts with moderators can offer their opinions and grievances in full public view. Why should everything be hidden? We including Leo talk about Spiral Dynamics day in day out, shouldn't we expect a democratic attitude and transparency on this forum? Why is stuff hidden from members. Transparency should be expected on a place that demands growth from people. What has Leo got to hide? Why not allow users to air grievances in public? 

I suggest a separate featured thread only meant as an  option to allow users to vent their grievances against any form of moderator abuse of power or any mod related concerns. This will give a person a chance to let Leo and everyone know if something doesn't look right. 

I've seen many members on the forum saying things like "please don't ban me", this suggests that a lot of users feel a sense of fear. Is this healthy?? 

Just like workers in a factory have a union, we also need someone who can solely represent users and their concerns. 

Both mods and Leo are on one side figuratively. And users are on the other. This looks like an asymmetrical power dynamic. The sole authority goes to @Leo Gura and the moderators. Where is the authority that represents users? 

I expect this place to be free and fair if that's the principle of this organization called Actualized.org. As such it shouldn't be completely dominated by Leo without our suggestions and frustrations or grievances taken into account. Leo needs to seriously consider this. 

Users /members voices also need a non-discriminatory fair outlet. And I think that outlet can be a grievance addressal thread with some authority that speaks on behalf of users without any bias (toward users/members) 

Why doesn't Leo ever consider this? 

Forum members your thoughts are highly appreciated on this subject. 

 

[RendHeaven]

This whole situation is cloudy because we don't know what kind of misbehavior you've been accused of.

You're being "transparent" about your feelings of injustice, but that's actually the easiest transparency possible. Anyone can cry about how they've (supposedly) been wronged. The more difficult transparency involves telling the whole story - including moments where you don't look so pretty.

Notice how you painted this whole scenario in such a way that the mod is the bad guy "abuser" and you're the innocent angel? (it's implied that you've done nothing wrong - don't deny this) 

If you had described exactly what you were accused of, why this behavior seemed bad to the mod (this shows that you can step outside of yourself), and why you still don't agree with the final judgement, that would be much more convincing.

There is also a reason that these matters are generally not public - it's easy to use democracy as a shield to get away with devilry. It's not unheard of to charm your friends into blindly agreeing with you and getting things YOUR way by outnumbering your dissenters.

If you still believe that this mod is being unfair to you, DM Leo. And be humble. This is his house. We are all guests

 

P.S.

What if the mod is actually right about you?

I've gotten "unfair" warning points in the past that seemed like they were maliciously targeting me in the moment, but in hindsight they were (partially) right to call me out.

So even though I still don't 100% agree with their judgement, I've learned and matured. 

It's wise to self-reflect before running to other people

[Preety_India]

@RendHeaven  this is not about me. This is just a thought I got. 

No mod has done anything to me. But I did saw a couple of posts from people and I realized that there is a hidden issue going on that's never addressed 

 

[RendHeaven]

Well, then!

All the less reason to assume "abuse"

If a person is consistently getting warnings, it makes sense to me that they are misbehaving.

13 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

If you still believe that this mod is being unfair to you, DM Leo. And be humble. This is his house. We are all guests

I still stand by this. It's a perfectly reasonable solution in the rare case that a mod does actually become abusive.

[Preety_India]

@RendHeaven actually many people have complained about this in their journals. I personally wouldn't like to bring up past situations or the names of these members. But I realized this problem even back then. 

One such case was the banning of electrobeam, thanks to efforts from Eren, @Leo Gura looked into the matter and got him back. But what if Eren hadn't brought attention to this matter? 

So you see things like this happen. I wish Leo was more proactive with the whole mod-member scenario. People should not have to make threads to get Leo's attention to a matter. If they approach him, he should answer it. And often he doesn't. Leaving users with no option. 

You could read my suggestions in the original post and I'm sure these suggestions will be helpful to forum members. 

Remember abuse of power is more common than you'd think. 

 

 

[bejapuskas]

5 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Notice how you painted this whole scenario in such a way that the mod is the bad guy "abuser" and you're the innocent angel?

@RendHeaven  I think she is maybe less biased than you think, I know Preety_India doesn't see all mods as abuser guys/girls. Also I don't think Preety_India herself is a target of this abuse, I get the sense that she is talking about other people. For example Javfly33 created a thread in which he wanted to learn about relationships (and it was pretty obvious his mindset was not a victim mindset, therefore his thread is alive), but thought it is a victim thread and posted something like "before this thread gets banned for being a victim thread, I'd like to say so and so...". 

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

If you still believe that this mod is being unfair to you, DM Leo. And be humble. This is his house. We are all guests

This is an important point, Leo spends his own resources to run this forum. I don't know if some of the users realize this, it's great that you do. There have been some forums in the past that got so corrupted by low-consciousness users that it went out of control and no number of mods could stop the situation, the forum had to be shut down. I can send a link to some articles about this if you are interested.

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

And this can easily spiral out of control.

This HAS happened in the past on other forums and it is one of the reasons Leo is so strict.

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

Mods are not perfect. They are just like users here. As such they shouldn't have to feel or act privileged. Abuse of their powers or privileges can easily happen. 

This is very true. And there is a variety in the population of mods on this forum, they are of different ages, life experiences, genders, areas of expertise... For example if I went to preach about nutrition and exercise instead of Michael569 that would be very dangerous. But maybe I know more about anime than him. It's not like all the mods are perfectly evolved human beings whatever that means and they are always right in the advice they give and what they say, nor do I think the mods think that about themselves, although I might be wrong here. Just be mindful of this, the mods are also mindful of the fact that the users are coming from different places.

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

In the absence or reluctance of Leo, can we approach any mod for the misbehavior of another mod?

I think certainly you can, especially if your concerns are serious.

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

I think decisions like Banning a user or too many warning points should be decided by all mods and @Leo Gura collectively. Also if a user is given multiple warning points or if their points are adding up, maybe the user should have an option to speak to Leo and clear the situation in conjunction with the particular mod. 

That's a good idea, I can see how that would work in some cases. There are some issues with that though, for example some people just cannot withstand criticism and also, most of the people who are being banned are spammers and discussing about banning them is a waste of time.

[Preety_India]

@bejapuskas  thank you so much for your response and appreciation of a member's concern. 

That is really helpful. 

The relationship between mods and members needs to be a helpful and empathetic one and not a domineering one. 

You have shown great empathy and understanding in your response and I'm glad you responded. 

 

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@RendHeaven  I think she is maybe less biased than you think, I know Preety_India doesn't see all mods as abuser guys/girls. Also I don't think Preety_India herself is a target of this abuse, I get the sense that she is talking about other people. For example Javfly33 created a thread in which he wanted to learn about relationships (and it was pretty obvious his mindset was not a victim mindset, therefore his thread is alive), but thought it is a victim thread and posted something like "before this thread gets banned for being a victim thread, I'd like to say so and so...". 

This is an important point, Leo spends his own resources to run this forum. I don't know if some of the users realize this, it's great that you do. There have been some forums in the past that got so corrupted by low-consciousness users that it went out of control and no number of mods could stop the situation, the forum had to be shut down. I can send a link to some articles about this if you are interested.

This HAS happened in the past on other forums and it is one of the reasons Leo is so strict.

This is very true. And there is a variety in the population of mods on this forum, they are of different ages, life experiences, genders, areas of expertise... For example if I went to preach about nutrition and exercise instead of Michael569 that would be very dangerous. But maybe I know more about anime than him. It's not like all the mods are perfectly evolved human beings whatever that means and they are always right in the advice they give and what they say, nor do I think the mods think that about themselves, although I might be wrong here. Just be mindful of this, the mods are also mindful of the fact that the users are coming from different places.

I think certainly you can, especially if your concerns are serious.

That's a good idea, I can see how that would work in some cases. There are some issues with that though, for example some people just cannot withstand criticism and also, most of the people who are being banned are spammers and discussing about banning them is a waste of time.

Thank you. 

[RendHeaven]

3 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@RendHeaven  I think she is maybe less biased than you think, I know Preety_India doesn't see all mods as abuser guys/girls.

Yes, my mistake was assuming that she was talking about her own experience. I'm glad she politely corrected me!

@Preety_India 

I hear you.

Personally, I'm just skeptical whenever people complain of unfairness on this forum, because that tends to be avoiding self-reflection. I believe Leo more or less shares the same perspective as me, hence his disengaged attitude toward this topic.

11 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

 

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

In the absence or reluctance of Leo, can we approach any mod for the misbehavior of another mod?

I think certainly you can, especially if your concerns are serious.

This is good news

[bejapuskas]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Yes, my mistake was assuming that she was talking about her own experience. I'm glad she politely corrected me!

It's ok, misunderstandings happen everywhere.

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Personally, I'm just skeptical whenever people complain of unfairness on this forum, because that tends to be avoiding self-reflection. 

I wonder where you come from. Preety_India might be more sensitive to this, because she as an Indian encounters unfairness that is not caused by a lack of self-reflection everyday I can imagine. Imagine seeing a modern skyscraper next to a dumpster and a slum. That's what India is like. 

6 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

This is good news

Yes, but please still think about what you actually come to the person with. Spend a day just thinking about it, self-reflection. Some moderators have family lives, work to do etc. and they just will not read something that does not show empathy, self-reflection or any good arguments. Perhaps reading the guidelines would help you to understand better what is allowed and what is not, although naturally not all the things that can possibly happen can be included there. 

Perhaps discussing what a serious concern means could bear some fruit?

[Michael569]

@Preety_India I agree with some of your points and disagree with some as well. 

I think you have to consider that us mods are still regular human beings and we are prone to making many mistakes before we learn how to "police" the forum in a just and fair manner. Especially those of us who are still new to this. It is possible we have banned few people who were not necessarily spammers? Yes possible. We come from different countries, cultures background and upbringing and all of this we take on when we evaluate what action to take. Where one of us would give mere message warning , another would shoot 10 warning points because we have a different moral compass. Many of us are 4-8 hours spread apart in different time zones, that impacts how we work as well. 

At the same time there is a lot of stuff going on that regular users often don't see and without mod policing you'd soon be offered sex product, viagras, sex toys, drugs, cocaine and all sort of crap from bots across the world. Can a "civilian" be hit in the mids of this crossfire? Yes definitely! 

Should you at any time feel one of us treated you unfairly...or anyone reading this. Please reach out to another moderator in confidence and ask for a second opinion. 

[bejapuskas]

On 17. 12. 2020 at 9:57 AM, bejapuskas said:

Perhaps discussing what a serious concern means could bear some fruit?

Guys you are free to discuss this idea, I think it might help if you point at something very serious. I believe in you. I used to be a regular member myself so maybe I can relate and put some ideas out there myself, but I have been living in this moderator body kind of for some time now and the forum has changed since then. So please talk, otherwise this will go into waste.

[Proserpina]

Eh. I've been 'manhandled' in this forum at my absolute lowest. Caused me damage. People are ignorant.  

[bejapuskas]

@Proserpina  Did a moderator do that? Or did some other person do that in a presence of a moderator that did not act responsibly enough in your opinion?

[Proserpina]

1 minute ago, bejapuskas said:

@Proserpina  Did a moderator do that? Or did some other person do that in a presence of a moderator that did not act responsibly enough in your opinion?

Leo.

It's Leo's place though.  He can act as he likes.  

It should of been clear as day I wasn't on planet earth. 

[Claymoree]

I don't think you want it , I have had some where sad encounters , that I will not disclose as we are all humans, but were wrong  in my opinion.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Claymoree

[bejapuskas]

@Proserpina  Maybe Leo assumes you want to know some truth if you are here on this forum, and pushing that truth onto people never works if they don't want it themselves. I think sometimes being harsh on people is a good way to motivate them though, it totally depends. Leo has never seen your reaction to what he says I assume, so maybe it is hard for him to predict, I mean, he does not interact with viewers face to face right. Are you able to forgive him? Do you get the sense that he has been self-reflecting in the past few days and maybe he is getting better at this?

@Claymoree What do you mean?

[Proserpina]

I thought it was a basic ethic not to mistreat those who are mentally unwell. 

10 points and no forum for you,  mentally ill person

[bejapuskas]

@Proserpina  I cannot really judge because I did not see the post, I hope you understand. But yeah I guess oftentimes people here, not only Leo, are very unsensitive. I kind of get it why Leo may be pushing the Truth so much, unconsciousness causes great suffering everywhere, but then I am not sure whether this is the best way. Does this forum help you with solving your emotional issues? Do you think it should? I am just saying this because there is nobody responsible for you here, I hope you know this. I am not saying this because I do not care about your well-being, but then you cannot really think that someone here is responsible. Maybe don't spend time here or just spend it differently, doing only the things that work? (I am trying to make suggestions because I am not convinced that there can be a big revolution on this forum around mental health)

I think if people knew each other more well here, which is maybe impossible, and listened to each other and learned about each others' life conditions, that would make them grow a lot, like not just learning some models and putting people into boxes but actually interacting. I mean both tools are useful but then yeah there is balance and transcendence. There are so many opportunities for growth here that people do not see.

[Danioover9000]

@Preety_India

On 12/17/2020 at 2:26 AM, Preety_India said:

What are the options for users if they sense that a certain moderator here is biased against them. And what if this biased mod is constantly looking to give warning points, looking for that one error you make to catch you in it. 

 

Mods are not perfect. They are just like users here. As such they shouldn't have to feel or act privileged. Abuse of their powers or privileges can easily happen. 

Are mods given the power to directly ban a user? What if the mod bans out of Jealousy or personal vendetta? How will the user this to Leo if the user is banned by the mod already? 

Has @Leo Gura considered this?

This needs serious discussion. 

Also Leo does not bother to read complaints from users. 

Are moderators here to be trusted completely? 

In the absence or reluctance of Leo, can we approach any mod for the misbehavior of another mod? 

 

This website or forum runs because of users. As such I think users should not have to constantly feel on edge or get treated as disposables. 

If we as users have grievances we should be able to safely discuss them with a particular person/Leo /mod here. 

What if you approach a mod, and they don't bother to respond or give a very generic response and shut down your concerns. 

Are forum members aware of moderator power abuse and what are their experiences and suggestions? 

Bias and prejudice is a pretty common issue with many people and this includes moderators as well. 

Moderators shouldn't be exempt from wrong or unfair behaviors. 

In retrospect I think @Leo Gura ends up giving a lot of control to moderators here.

And this can easily spiral out of control.

These are my suggestions/feedback. 

I think decisions like Banning a user or too many warning points should be decided by all mods and @Leo Gura collectively. Also if a user is given multiple warning points or if their points are adding up, maybe the user should have an option to speak to Leo and clear the situation in conjunction with the particular mod. 

If the same mod is constantly giving warning points each time, maybe this should also be addressed by @Leo Gura.. Or the mod should be told to inform Leo if they are giving warning points to the same user again. This can prevent moderator abuse of power.

I hope this place doesn't get ruined by abuse of power. 

Like I said, forum members need to be respected and not be treated as disposables. We have every right to be here as long as we are following the rules and making this place a productive place. 

Also my other suggestion is to open a general grievance thread where members having conflicts with moderators can offer their opinions and grievances in full public view. Why should everything be hidden? We including Leo talk about Spiral Dynamics day in day out, shouldn't we expect a democratic attitude and transparency on this forum? Why is stuff hidden from members. Transparency should be expected on a place that demands growth from people. What has Leo got to hide? Why not allow users to air grievances in public? 

I suggest a separate featured thread only meant as an  option to allow users to vent their grievances against any form of moderator abuse of power or any mod related concerns. This will give a person a chance to let Leo and everyone know if something doesn't look right. 

I've seen many members on the forum saying things like "please don't ban me", this suggests that a lot of users feel a sense of fear. Is this healthy?? 

Just like workers in a factory have a union, we also need someone who can solely represent users and their concerns. 

Both mods and Leo are on one side figuratively. And users are on the other. This looks like an asymmetrical power dynamic. The sole authority goes to @Leo Gura and the moderators. Where is the authority that represents users? 

I expect this place to be free and fair if that's the principle of this organization called Actualized.org. As such it shouldn't be completely dominated by Leo without our suggestions and frustrations or grievances taken into account. Leo needs to seriously consider this. 

Users /members voices also need a non-discriminatory fair outlet. And I think that outlet can be a grievance addressal thread with some authority that speaks on behalf of users without any bias (toward users/members) 

Why doesn't Leo ever consider this? 

Forum members your thoughts are highly appreciated on this subject. 

 

   Try to contact that mod to seek clarification, and if that doesn't work, try and pm Leo, regarding say warnings.

   Getting a ban and resolving that might be more difficult, because it may take other users to raise this issue.