Every Thing Is The Same Thing, Every Experience Is The Same Experience

[Kevin Dunlop]

Another aspect of the common discussions here, that physics explains now, is the idea of emptiness. There may be some importance in incorporating empty space into our vision of reality. We are conditioned to focus on labeling what is there, not to think in terms of what is not there, and all of this has an effect on our consciousness. Now science says there is way more empty space between subatomic particles than particles ,if I remember correctly they compared it to the distances between objects in the solar system. So we are literally more empty space than stuff in their opinion. Then there is darkmatter and antimatter.

Everyone knows that the sun has a huge effect on our lives, it heats the planet, keeps us in a stable orbit, is the energy used by plants etc. Now if we look at black holes, they are massive they suck up galexies full of suns whole, but we never think of how this nothingness effects us or is a huge part of what we are. 

 If we shift our focus the the empty part of reality we see it differently, and feel it differently, maybe more relaxed. I bet there are lots of master musicians who could tell you every note in every song written by mozart. But none who could tell you what all the spaces between the notes are. We dont study the imperceptible but if we want to experience true reality as it is maybe we need to experience this balance too.

[Kevin Dunlop]

On 24/9/2016 at 6:14 PM, Neo said:

You've seen it. I understand it intellectually. I've only seen a foot print and a whisker.

Just wanted to say that when I read your text I hear it in the voice of Keanu Reeves, cool effect!

 

[Bronsoval]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Kevin Dunlop said:

Every thing is the same thing, every experience is the same experience

I encourage you to try wearing fiberglass underwear, then tell me if this statement holds true.  Or you could eat Styrofoam for a week.  Really though, this is a stoic belief.  Check out Marcus Aurelius if you haven't 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Bronsoval

[Neo]

Quote

When the ego can be installed with a completely different perspective that feels better than what it has constructed, after years of conditioning, it begins to prove to itself that it does not understand true reality. The more you can get the ego to give up on imposing itself as the one authority on perception the closer you are to unfiltered pure awareness.

You mention some very good points which don't really come out in Leo's videos, thanks.

[kurt]

On 9/28/2016 at 7:44 AM, Neo said:

OK I see what you are saying however, if I were to absorb this into my current world view, this is surely just another part of an egoic mindset, albeit a very open minded and radical view, but nonetheless still part of the ego which is like a web of ideas, this ego some are trying to shake off or at least expose for asll it's inadequacies?

Mmmm, no. lol

This is assimilation of self knowledge.  Enlightened people have an ego and can only experience themselves (like everyone else) in the subtle body.  The difference is that once the insight is assimilated the belief in duality is gone.  The experience of duality remains, it has to, otherwise you cannot function.  An analogy I find useful is imagine you grow up on dessert island completely isolated from the outside world.  All your life you have watched the sun rise and set and you firmly believe this is how things really are (you had no reason not do doubt your ignorance).  Then one day along comes a helicopter and drops off a scientist and the scientist informs you that despite your belief in the the sun rising every morning and setting every evening the sun is in fact not actually rising and setting, the real situation is the world is orbiting around the sun and we only see an appearance of rising and setting from the perspective of the ground.  Regardless of the facts of the situation, the appearance remains the same, the only thing that has changed is the rock solid belief in the appearance - it is known to be only an appareance. 

If you understand what it is, and your experience verifies it this is enough for realization.  The only task now is to keep uprooting the doubts when they come.

Edited September 29, 2016 by kurt

[Neo]

Quote

This is assimilation of self knowledge.  Enlightened people have an ego and can only experience themselves (like everyone else) in the subtle body.  The difference is that once the insight is assimilated the belief in duality is gone.  The experience of duality remains, it has to, otherwise you cannot function.  An analogy I find useful is imagine you grow up on dessert island completely isolated from the outside world.  All your life you have watched the sun rise and set and you firmly believe this is how things really are (you had no reason not do doubt your ignorance).  Then one day along comes a helicopter and drops off a scientist and the scientist informs you that despite your belief in the the sun rising every morning and setting every evening the sun is in fact not actually rising and setting, the real situation is the world is orbiting around the sun and we only see an appearance of rising and setting from the perspective of the ground.  Regardless of the facts of the situation, the appearance remains the same, the only thing that has changed is the rock solid belief in the appearance - it is known to be only an appareance. 

If you understand what it is, and your experience verifies it this is enough for realization.  The only task now is to keep uprooting the doubts when they come.

Can you square this with "having" to experience death of the ego?

[kurt]

1 minute ago, Neo said:

Can you square this with "having" to experience death of the ego?

Not sure what you mean. Could you re-phrase?

[Neo]

Quote

Not sure what you mean. Could you re-phrase?

Apparently it's essential to see the death of "ego", so how can the enlightened person still use it at will when it is no more?

[kurt]

@Neo

You don't need ego death, just stick with the meditation, keeping the mind clear, self "experiences" are just the self reflected in the subtle body, as long as you know what enlightenment is and don't mistake it for some transcendental experience and therefore keep chasing experiences (creating more desire) and just apply the knowledge on a moment to moment basis, the identification will break.  I don''t think the dualistic thoughts go away, it's more of a permeation into the personality.

I don't actually know what ego death is, it sounds like some mystical thing, I can't tell you if it's got anything to do with liberation. Liberation is just the solid knowledge that "I am awareness", the ego knows it's true nature, so the need and fear of objects collapses and there is just being rather than becoming.

I do know there are about 101 definitions of "ego" floating about.  

[Neo]

Quote

I do know there are about 101 definitions of "ego" floating about.

Yes it's true, I keep thinking I got it, then I need milk again instead of meat.

And yes, it's true, again I am chasing an experience, how can you not when you had clarity of mind and saw everything through new eyes that seemed so clear and awake? And anyway, isn't it human nature to chase something anyway?

[kurt]

Just now, Neo said:

Yes it's true, I keep thinking I got it, then I need milk again instead of meat.

And yes, it's true, again I am chasing an experience, how can you not when you had clarity of mind and saw everything through new eyes that seemed so clear and awake? And anyway, isn't it human nature to chase something anyway?

It is human nature to seek outside, it's hard wired.  But I guess the end of the road is the understanding of the zero-sum nature of seeking?  Eventually will come a time when the desire to experience will be converted into the desire to understand.  In the spiritual world is full of stories about experiencing enlightenment and oneness, its natural because its a natural progression from seeking worldly objects.  However, sadly there is still another dark night to go through with the spiritual object seeking.

 

[kurt]

All experience is subject to change, therefore is still samsara.  The good news is you get it, so this is what you want, you have done the hard work

[Kevin Dunlop]

PERCEPTION - Ok Ill let you know more about this riddle I posted ¨every experience is the same experience¨. Everything is the experience of your perception. Enlightenment work is working on perception. We dont think about perception and how it is working for us, because normally we have nothing to compare it to. Normally we say, ¨ so hows that new car running, hows the wife, how was your day Buddy, but never ask how is your perception. Everything you percieve is funneled through the Egos trained filters. Enlightenment is percieving reality without the filter.

In the same way I could say every thing you see is the experience of sight. Now we do Know how to ask about sight perception and effect it. ¨Can you see these small letters Buddy? No! here put on these glasses. ¨ Presto, the miracle of amazing sight just like that. But making perception better is not so easy, it would be like taking off some messed up glasses you got used to and seeing reality with your own eyes for the first time. The only problem is that the messed up glasses we have on are important to us because we are addicted to them and think we need them for survival, yes thats the ego.

[Kevin Dunlop]

21 hours ago, Bronsoval said:

I encourage you to try wearing fiberglass underwear, then tell me if this statement holds true.  Or you could eat Styrofoam for a week.  Really though, this is a stoic belief.  Check out Marcus Aurelius if you haven't 

The experience of wearing silk underwear or fiberglass are both perception the same thing. I have tried both and both were experiences of perception. I mentioned it because it is useful to back up that far from experiences to work on how we are percieving reality and why. Thanks for the tip on Stoic beliefs, I didnt know about it, I downloaded a PDF of Marcus, from the year 121 AD! Pretty exciting 

Some would say wearing silk underwear all the time is better, but if it happens one day that I am covered with fiberglass dust I would learn a good lesson. Maybe its just as good to know about what to avoid. Maybe the fiberglass would help me protect others from this and awaken my compassion to a whole new level. If I had to calculate the benefits of not or having had the experience they might come out equal. If I think this way I dont have to go around with my mind on calculation overdrive. I can give it a break and experience the peace of not having fiberglass in my pants today. 

[Bronsoval]

Meditations by marcus is a good one, and so is Letters from a Stoic by Seneca

[Kevin Dunlop]

Ego and Ego Death. The word Ego gets complicated because it gets used alot and its meaning dispersed.  Thats why I like to call it the conditioned identity. Ego feels like something we are inside of its too personal, the conditioned identity feels less personal like a book I can look at as serpeate from me. I can see where it came from and analize it and the results of its use. The Ego or conditioned identity is what you learned during your life, from parents, society, TV, school ect. But dont forget the examples speak louder than the words. All of this you accepted as your filter on reality. This is a ncessary part of life. Humans learn and if our parents survived we want to know how they did it. This doesnt mean that all that we learned is good for us its just what there was at the time. This is the Ego what you learned to be, what you learned to want and to see, all your rules and definitions, objectives and desires - a bunch of learned stuff you think is you. The problem is all of this learning is represented to you in terms of words (bound in duality) and most of it was done when you were 3 to 7 years old. So its really flawed, and you can feel the impact of this but dont know that you can change it or how to, it seems too big a job to unravel the mess, so you just keep on running along with it. Also it is hard to see how your perception work objectively.

Ego death

   Imagine that your Ego is a computer program that you are addicted to. You cant reach down and turn it off. Enlightenment work is like installing a virus into your computer so that it wont work anymore because you cant stop alone. These weird little phrases we are discussing in this site are like viruses you can install to shut off addictive programming. If you are tired of the egos program you might be looking for a way to shut off the computer and get back to reality. These helpful virus type beliefs may be the only way to free yourself from the computer but you have to do the work of installing them. Some people just collect these viruses as a new addiction and never install them so they never work, and they stay addicted to the learned identity. So if you manage to find a good virus and install it to shut off your ego computer its like an Ego Death. You will still have the memory of the addictive game but it will not be your only choice. You can percieve reality for what it is not what you were lead to believe it is. Once you start enjoying being outside you wont want to return to a pac- man addiction but that doesnt mean you dont know what it is anymore

[Kevin Dunlop]

18 hours ago, John Flores said:

@Kevin Dunlop ego death means you return to The Source.

Death literally is transition to reality - uncovering the vale

I like to think of it this way, Enlightened people can still talk, talking is part of the learned identity, the Ego. If the Ego had died totally and was gone, erased, goodbye,  than how could it be used to talk? So to me the Ego is not erased it is exposed for what it is and no longer used a total filter on reality. It is the death or the of the egos system. But I dont want to tell you how to see it either, we each have our own way

Edited September 30, 2016 by Kevin Dunlop

[kurt]

12 minutes ago, Kevin Dunlop said:

I like to think of it this way, Enlightened people can still talk, talking is part of the learned identity, the Ego. If the Ego had died totally and was gone, erased, goodbye,  than how could it be used to talk? So to me the Ego is not erased it is exposed for what it is and no longer used a a filter on reality. It is the death or the of the egos system. But I dont want to tell you how to see it either, we each have our own way

Yep! And if we had no ego then there wouldn't be anybody here to enjoy enlightenment.    If its a non dual reality, then that must include the ego because life without ego is a duality.  Non dual reality includes the real and the apparent, it's just that one is not fooled by the apparent objects ignorance projects.  The objects ARE the Self, (projected from past actions from the causal body) maya is the illusion that the objects are somehow "out there"

Edited September 30, 2016 by kurt

[Kevin Dunlop]

1 hour ago, kurt said:

 The objects ARE the Self, (projected from past actions from the causal body) maya is the illusion that the objects are somehow "out there"

This is the answer to my other riddle, Everything is the same thing, the Self. Though to be honest I personally dont feel it that way. I still feel like things are really out there, I dont take credit for having invented them or that they are me. How I percieve them and What they are to me is my creation though. I can use the Kindergarden mind and say look an Apple ¨A¨ apple red, crunchy. Or I can see it for what it is infinite amounts of information, amazing and beautiful beyond description like everything else.  

[kurt]

@Kevin Dunlop

The chair Im sat on is only a sensation.  I can only infer that there is a "chair" there, but I can't actually find a real chair, only the sensation of it in my mind.  But... how about that sensation?  Is it any different to the sense organs?  What is the difference?  None, there is no division between the "chair" sensation, the sense organs and consciousness.  However, there is still the perception of dimension, but that doesn't really matter much because I clearly see that my experience is one, its "flat" it's not really dimensional, only maya tricks me into thinking that.  But upon close inspection there is only one experience here.  

Whats even more mind boggling (but equally as irrefutable) is that you are in the same experience as I.  We are one experience.  

Nice to meet "you"