The thin line between spirituality and madness

[Persipnei]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You mean your vocabulary?  

I have been following your conversation with Someone here. Not sure why he keeps projecting, but I appreciate you trying to show him.

 

 

Anyways. Thank you to all for all the replies. It helped me put some things in perspective and give it a name. Heading to bed now, but I'll might update this if things have become clearer.

[Someone here]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You mean your vocabulary?  

I already did. The message is for you lol. It's not that you never think "oh I shouldn't say" you will probably do to maintain your integrity in society if you care about that at least. But I'm speaking about seeing though it that everything you "should" do you don't really "should" do lol. 

[DeepSpace]

Speaking to a therapist maybe? You've got enormous social pressures at the moment, having someone that you can bounce back and fourth with is that isn't going to gaslight you in anyway will really help you.

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Persipnei said:

It ranges from sad compassionate looks to literally calling me a "danger" to my son. Not sure why I would be a danger, maybe I cuddle him to hard? 

I have seen this happen 20 years ago, when my sister turned her life 180° around. "She's in a sect", "she's doing drugs", ... People try to explain in their mindset what is happening.

I guess there is a big lesson to learn in this, but I haven't found it yet...

Not what are their reactions like...what are they reacting to?  What behavior or words transpired at your end to which their reaction was that you are a danger to your son?  It could very well be the case, but it’s hard to picture you woke, loving & compassionate...and them saying such things out of nowhere. Possible indeed, but highly unlikely. If someone was telling you only the above...wouldn’t you see there is more to the story?  

3 hours ago, Persipnei said:

The friends I had for more than 20 years let me fall like a brick when I stopped playing my part in our habitual interactions and my wife told me yesterday she is leaving me, seemingly because I'm not playing my part anymore in the social drama's we created during the years. I'm fine with all this. I realized I have everything I need within me and wish them all the best.

The funny thing is that, while I have never felt better and I'm 100% sure of the way I'm walking, my environment thinks I have lost it and I need help. I wonder how many souls end in a mental institution because their environment can't handle their new way of standing in life. I thought my own ego would be the biggest hurdle, but it seems other people's ego really feel the need to keep mine in check.

I have reacted to their reactions with compassion and love, but realize that they are becoming more toxic by the day and that I will have to cut connections.

Not sure why I'm posting this... guess I needed to write it off...

What is ‘stopped playing my part’ which results in losing twenty year friendships and your wife? Is it really simply that you just prefer the changes? You’re questioning how many people end up in a mental institution because of their environment is a sort of red flag, possibly a cry for help...no? Blaming other people’s ego’s...? What exactly is it which they ‘can’t handle’?  How sure are you that “your own ego” isn’t the biggest hurdle here?  Awakened folks are a joy to be around ime. Not implying the awakening was invalid or anything, but maybe it’s being spread like butter across everything...maybe that’s not sitting well...? Some times awakening is just so damn good it doesn’t matter, but it might. More than anything else, maybe. 

If your wife is experiencing monkey mind (drama) and you are experiencing true peace of mind & compassion...how are you not seeing and experiencing orders of magnitude beyond this, such that ‘dramas’ are not persisting? Unless, again, what you really want is to not have the friendships, marriage, child, parents, etc.  Wish you the best in any case. 

[DeepSpace]

@Persipnei Speaking to a therapist maybe? You've got enormous social pressures at the moment, having someone that you can bounce back and fourth with is that isn't going to gaslight you in anyway will really help you.

Edited December 16, 2020 by DeepSpace

[Someone here]

22 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

I have been following your conversation with Someone here. Not sure why he keeps projecting, but I appreciate you trying to show him.

 

I'm not projecting I'm trying to help you brother. Alright I'm being  overly sarcastic and pedantic maybe that's not the way. 

But the juice of what I'm saying is you are making an issue out of a non issue. 

Everyone is fed up with drama and having to show up every day and fake everything we do but do you got a better plan? Just screw it all and go homeless? Nah doesn't sound nice either 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Someone here

[Emerald]

There is a social cohesion strategy called "crabs in the bucket". I think Leo has even spoken about this phenomenon in his video. 

It is where, if you go out crabbing, you don't have to keep a lid on the bucket of crabs. If one tries to escape, the other crabs in the bucket will yank the escaping crab back down into the bucket. 

And this is quite accurate to how social cohesion works in human social orders such as families, religious institutions, businesses, friendship circles, and the list goes on and on. 

Every human social order has a certain "vibration". There is a frequency or a note that all people have to maintain in order to stay in a given human social order. This frequency of a given social order includes a certain emotional set-point, world-view, role, and identity.

And if someone starts to deviate from that frequency in some way, the crabs in the bucket phenomenon will ensue... for better and for worse.

This means, that if a person within a certain social order (such as a family or friend group) is entraining themselves with a frequency that is healthier than the given social order, the members of that social order will try to be like crabs in the bucket and try to yank that person back down into the familiar frequency. And if they cannot, they will likely be unable to hold space for that expansion.

This is often why it's so difficult to heal from old traumas or to awaken to new possibilities, because the family members and friendships are often bonded through the frequency of that generational trauma. So, when we have awakenings or growth periods and we leave the frequency of generational trauma, we now lose the outlet for connection to those who are still entrenched in the generation trauma. 

On the flip side, the crabs in the bucket phenomenon can be used in a positive way. So, if a person starts entraining with a frequency that is less healthy than the given social order, the crabs in the bucket dynamic entails that the family or friend group will try to yank you back up to maintain social cohesion. For example, if a member of a particular social group starts doing hard drugs and becomes an addict, the social group will try to maintain cohesion with that person by bringing them back into the fold.

The issue is that, from the social cohesion perspective, the crabs in the bucket often can't differentiate between a crab that is transcending the frequency of the bucket and the crab that is falling into a denigrated frequency compared to the frequency of the bucket. It is equally a threat to social cohesion. And the crabs usually don't recognize that the escaping crab is actually going somewhere better. 

This dynamic is exacerbated in families that are dealing with enmeshment trauma, where individuality is discouraged and all the focus is placed upon social cohesion. 

This may be the thing you're experiencing because, now that you no longer play this specific role in your friends'/family's lives because you have transcended that role. And now that you no longer hold the same "frequency" and don't/can't play the same role, they no longer know how to maintain social cohesion with you. 

[Spaceofawareness]

1 hour ago, Persipnei said:

@Spaceofawareness

Thank you for your post.

Yea, I have a son and I must say he is the only one close to me that seems to like me more than before. I understand the connection there is between him, my wife and me. I did try to include her in this, but your post made me decide I will try again and harder. But in the end, I think it's about the journey one walks, and if 2 people have been walking the same path for a decade and one suddenly changes path... Can't expect her to follow me.

 

I can resonate with you to some extent, having a recent awakening, a family, wife and two young kids. 

I have maintained my relationships wherever possible, though I think there is little doubt among my coworkers and friends that something has changed here. Yet thankfully, the people I have in my life accept me for who I am, I am a no frills kind of person, not really interested in small talk, etc. Yet this past year, it is connections from people in my life which I have been attempting to turn around. I think it is those connections, even the seemingly least significant, which can support you through this, so you aren’t just alone on this journey.

i can’t say it’s been that successful, though, it hasn’t hurt either. I have always felt a bit weird compared to most people I know. Most guys I know like sports, etc. I have no interest in this kind of thing, so finding ways to connect with them is difficult, yet, I find as long as you are present, you can find some way. 

Right now, if you are detached, it is like being in a bubble or cave, things seem distant, you seem apart from the world, not A part of it. 

The tendency seems to be to remain in this state, and you likely find it very easy to remain detached, from emotions, in yourself, observing instead of engaging.

 

i feel like this must run its course, yet, at least in my case, it doesn’t stay, you return to your old life, old ways, feeling a sense of loss, trying to regain what you had. But you retain that memory, or essence of what you learned, but, must now bring it INTO your everyday life and experiences, going from division to union, yet remaining as you are.

Don’t force anything, just let it unfold, yet, in your situation, try to keep those connections alive for when the return happens, so you can reintegrate everything.

[Moon]

@Emerald beautiful explanation! 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Moon said:

@Emerald beautiful explanation! 

Thank you

[Zigzag Idiot]

@Moon I agree with your assessment of Emeralds advice. 

Serious. Not just being a kiss ass.??

A saying by Ocke deBoer about an awakened being dealing with people in whatever culture it may be. " Sometimes you need to learn when it's time to go run and hide."

[Persipnei]

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

Not what are their reactions like...what are they reacting to?  What behavior or words transpired at your end to which their reaction was that you are a danger to your son?  It could very well be the case, but it’s hard to picture you woke, loving & compassionate...and them saying such things out of nowhere. Possible indeed, but highly unlikely. If someone was telling you only the above...wouldn’t you see there is more to the story?  

What is ‘stopped playing my part’ which results in losing twenty year friendships and your wife? Is it really simply that you just prefer the changes? You’re questioning how many people end up in a mental institution because of their environment is a sort of red flag, possibly a cry for help...no? Blaming other people’s ego’s...? What exactly is it which they ‘can’t handle’?  How sure are you that “your own ego” isn’t the biggest hurdle here?  Awakened folks are a joy to be around ime. Not implying the awakening was invalid or anything, but maybe it’s being spread like butter across everything...maybe that’s not sitting well...? Some times awakening is just so damn good it doesn’t matter, but it might. More than anything else, maybe. 

If your wife is experiencing monkey mind (drama) and you are experiencing true peace of mind & compassion...how are you not seeing and experiencing orders of magnitude beyond this, such that ‘dramas’ are not persisting? Unless, again, what you really want is to not have the friendships, marriage, child, parents, etc.  Wish you the best in any case. 

Good morning. I'm typing here, while coffee is dripping. Take this as crude info without thought...

 

Not sure what they are reacting to. I think in the case of my parents it's being afraid of losing me and their grandson? In case of my "friends" I am sure, since they said it in my face: they don't care what I'm experiencing and they don't want to hear anything from it. I must admit we had been growing apart for years, I guess this was the killing blow.

My wife misses the attachment we had, what I now call a symbiotic mess of two souls who don't know what part is theirs... I'm clearly less attached and can understand that she feels alone, maybe even betrayed...

I appreciate your input. I have asked myself the question a few thousand times by now: is this ego who takes over? I don't think so. My ego says: "play your role, do what they expect, no change, no problem, you did it for 40 years, you are halfway".

I guess my post was a cry for help, or better said: a cry to help me understand and give it a place.

I'm not trying to say I am experiencing true peace of mind & compassion. Way more than before, sure, but I know I only made a few steps in the right direction and there is a loooooong road to take.

[Persipnei]

@Emerald Your post describes exactly what I saw when my sister changed her life 180°. I guess that's what's happening now, but being in the middle of it all gives it a different experience than looking from the sidelines. Thank you for your post. It resonates a lot and I'm gonna read it again when I'm more awake.

[Gesundheit]

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, Persipnei said:

Not sure what they are reacting to. I think in the case of my parents it's being afraid of losing me and their grandson?

Are you really saying it’s like you’re sitting a room, chillin, and out of nowhere your parents concoct a story about losing you & their grandson?

Where did they even get such a notion?  Did you for example say I’m considering moving somewhere, etc?

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In case of my "friends" I am sure, since they said it in my face: they don't care what I'm experiencing and they don't want to hear anything from it. I must admit we had been growing apart for years, I guess this was the killing blow.

What did you say to them, to which this was their response? 

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My wife misses the attachment we had, what I now call a symbiotic mess of two souls who don't know what part is theirs... I'm clearly less attached and can understand that she feels alone, maybe even betrayed...

Attachment is to thoughts,, not things or people. Did you and her talk about attachment to thoughts, enablement, codependency, processing emotional reactions, etc?   If you want your family, these are things you and her can understand & change in your relationship & household.  Any discussion on the truth of love in relationship to thought attachment, codependency, etc, or on maybe talking with someone who can help you both understand? If you’re doing what you actually want by separating, I’m not suggesting otherwise, but you did make the thread, and you’ve mentioned there might be something you’re missing. These are signs the way these events are unfolding is not resonating with you & you are looking to understand why. 

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I appreciate your input. I have asked myself the question a few thousand times by now: is this ego who takes over? I don't think so. My ego says: "play your role, do what they expect, no change, no problem, you did it for 40 years, you are halfway".

Can you elaborate on what the ‘take over’ is / looks like / feels like? 

When you say “do what they expect”...what is that?  What do you feel they expect? 

Does your wife, child, and parents all desire that you do not improve your life? Such as a change of source of income, housing, education, habits, healthier relationships, etc? How are they ‘against you’, or preventing you from doing what you want?  

Again, is it as simple as - you don’t want them in your life anymore? If this is the case, why is there the sentiment that they don’t want you ? Is that really a ‘sudden’ change on their part...nothing you said or did...somehow you had an awakening, and nobody wants you anymore? 

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I guess my post was a cry for help, or better said: a cry to help me understand and give it a place.

Tough question but, what is the “it” referred to? 

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I'm not trying to say I am experiencing true peace of mind & compassion. Way more than before, sure, but I know I only made a few steps in the right direction and there is a loooooong road to take.

“I have reacted to their reactions with compassion and love”

Long road, to what? 

[Persipnei]

@Nahm Thank you for asking deeper, it forces me to see my actions and thoughts in another light.

The situation with my parents and friends was quite the same. I was clearly behaving differently, still shaken from the experience. When they asked why I behaved "abnormal", I explained what I experienced. But in both cases I think I was just holding on to those connections more to keep them satisfied and that my honesty was the final blow.

The situation with my wife is different. I was always the guy who said: "OK", to whatever she asked, even if I felt like I had to say: "No". I have called her an hour ago and we will talk tomorrow. She sounded quite different than two days ago. 

> Did you and her talk about attachment to thoughts, enablement, codependency, processing emotional reactions, etc?

She might just run away if I use those words... Thing is, there was a time she was way more spiritual than I'll probably ever be, but guess she pushed the pause button or she is way ahead of me and I can't even see it. It can seems absurd, but she completely changed the day our son was born.

The take over is a string of thoughts that I always have accepted as truth, ideas how relationships work. The one that gets taken over is amazed about the ridiculousness of them.

I don't think they are against me, but they afraid to lose me. It's not that they don't want me, but that they don't want the newer version of me. But I do realise now how freaky it must be if the guy they know to be such and such suddenly changes big time. I should have handled it more diplomatic, but was not able to at that moment.

The 'it' I used to combine the whole situation, thoughts, interactions, ... I'm not a native English speaker, so I guess I rape this language sometimes.

The long road... I shouldn't have said that because it will make my spiritual path longer. I guess I said it like that to express that I don't feel enlightened or even spiritually advanced. I feel like a little kid when it's about these topics, a baby even.

 

Thank you again. Reading your words did a lot to me.

[Persipnei]

I kinda switched the take over part. In the first post I meant the opposite of that string of thoughts...

[mandyjw]

Awakening really shook my marriage but we came out of it much better than before. Amazing how many judgements and colored perceptions can form over the years of living with someone. Amazing to see that that's not actual. Amazing to keep seeing it every freaking day. lol 

2 hours ago, Persipnei said:

It can seems absurd, but she completely changed the day our son was born.

I have a hunch that this is completely key. What about your perceptions of her changed when your son was born? 

Edited December 16, 2020 by mandyjw

[Persipnei]

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Awakening really shook my marriage but we came out of it much better than before. Amazing how many judgements and colored perceptions can form over the years of living with someone. Amazing to see that that's not actual. Amazing to keep seeing it every freaking day. lol 

I have a hunch that this is completely key. What about your perceptions of her changed when your son was born? 

Before her pregnancy and his birth, we travelled a lot, had plans to go festival to festival with a coffeetruck, and there were never expectations to each other. I remember her saying: "I have friends with kids and they didn't change anything in their life, we won't have to change either". 

When she started changing by the end of the pregnancy, I thought it was just hormones and it would change back after a while, but it never did (we are 8 years later). I talked about it with her a couple of times, a year or so after the birth, and she got real mad, so I didn't bother anymore. I've never liked such confrontations, that's why I always said "OK".

I think you are right that this is probably key. Thank you for pointing this out. I'll meet her tomorrow and hope we will be able to talk about this.

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Persipnei said:

Thank you for asking deeper, it forces me to see my actions and thoughts in another light.

Thank you. Appreciating the conversation, and your willingness to explore perspectives. 

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The situation with my parents and friends was quite the same. I was clearly behaving differently, still shaken from the experience. When they asked why I behaved "abnormal", I explained what I experienced. But in both cases I think I was just holding on to those connections more to keep them satisfied and that my honesty was the final blow.

(...I’m using quotes on the word experience (below) in the recognition it points to what is ineffable, not to imply in any way the experience was not valid or actual, but to continue exploring)

Some questions that might aid in probing deeper...

Shaken...as in “holy fuck this is amazing I am dumbfounded by this feeling & truth!! Everything makes wonderful sense! Miraculous!!!”...or shaken more true to the definition...’disturbed psychologically as if by a physical jolt or shock’...? 

Did that ‘experience’ involve a recognition of an underlying bond of all ‘things’, which is exceptionally intimate, inseparable....which may have previously been thought to be something one can hold or not hold, or find, or produce, such as from a relationship? 

Abnormal....to which the responses from others might be along the lines of “That is not a ‘normal’ level of happiness...I wanna feel that good!! What gives?!”...or more “I think you need help with these behaviors / actions / processing what you’re experiencing?”

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The situation with my wife is different. I was always the guy who said: "OK", to whatever she asked, even if I felt like I had to say: "No". I have called her an hour ago and we will talk tomorrow. She sounded quite different than two days ago. 

Does it ring true in some sense that the reason you said ‘ok’, even when you wanted to say ‘no’, is ultimately for how you feel? Perhaps in the sense, it’s just easier than dealing with the/her fallout, as in her getting angry, you guys arguing, engaging in a ‘power struggle’ of sorts, maybe ‘cutting off’ or getting ‘cut off’ from intimacy, be it emotional connection and or physical?

If that does ring true even a little...can it be seen, or maybe deeply considered, that calm genuine ‘present’ communication about these matters can & would likely release some pent up feelings, maybe a resentment or two that was held in misunderstanding... bringing about some relief via expression and being heard, some airing out & letting go of perspectives which aren’t serving you or her... ultimately bringing you closer together? 

One ‘strategy’ that comes to mind for tomorrow (if it resonates)... a starting place of togetherness...to agree to think of the relationship as a third party. Something which you both contribute to, to keep it healthy, happy, active, fruitful...ever-going in the direction of what you both want to experience together. 

Sharing what each of you want to experience in this life, and what you want to experience together...being really open, sharing the dream in each of your hearts, experiencing the experience of that dream being expressed, verbalized, and heard...can be a marriage changing, and life changing, and love bringing experience. 

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> Did you and her talk about attachment to thoughts, enablement, codependency, processing emotional reactions, etc?

She might just run away if I use those words...

Maybe not. If your intention is to be with her...if what is paramount is how you feel, and how she feels...if that is the single point of focus from you...not being right, not ‘winning’, not correcting, etc...but potentially returning again & again to what is wanted...I have a hunch she might openly express something along the lines of “well, ya, of course I want to feel great all the time, of course I don’t want to battle it out & be arguing, butting heads, etc”.

Ans also...maybe she will run away. But maybe that’s a short term, needed thing. Maybe she needs to begin to explore depth of herself, of you, of the relationship, and maybe it is triggering, and she needs to run away and process that. Tomorrow is always a fresh new opportunity. There is growth realized, new insight & perspective from the hindsight view. Maybe this happens a few more times, maybe it happens twenty time. Yet - where else will it lead to, other than focusing on feeling great, and letting go of what doesn’t? (Again, this line of questioning is in the vein of if what you want it being with her, and her & son). 

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Thing is, there was a time she was way more spiritual than I'll probably ever be, but guess she pushed the pause button or she is way ahead of me and I can't even see it. It can seems absurd, but she completely changed the day our son was born.

It’s connotational, up to each one of us, but spiritual to me means inspecting to discover what is real, actual, True. A process in which it is inevitable that all which does not resonate is effortlessly let go, and all which is dreamt, wanted, desired, fills in as this experience. In this perspective, she (nor anyone else) can ever be ‘more spiritual than you’. There is an interesting factor here imo in that you’re both referring to her as more spiritual, and yet may bolt at the notion of inspecting attachment to thoughts, enablement, codependency, processing emotional reactions. This does not sound like a yet realized willingness to inspect, and to feel. I’m not saying this to judge, but that it could be insightful for you...this sounds to me like someone avoiding feeling...which is suffering. Going back to the single pointed conversational focus on what each of you want, and what you want together...surely it is not avoiding feeling (suffering), but exploring, rejoicing in, celebrating feeling. 

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The take over is a string of thoughts that I always have accepted as truth, ideas how relationships work. The one that gets taken over is amazed about the ridiculousness of them.

I think that is a wonderfully open minded start. The shedding of thought attachment, belief, ‘knowing’. I think if the orientation is that feeling is paramount, and there is some inspection of what does not feel good for either of you, many new & very awesome perspectives will arise as to happiness, and what is possible. 

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I don't think they are against me, but they afraid to lose me.

Could they even, really? If you’re living there, eventually you’ll move out...but they have not ‘lost’ you. If there is, say, a job opportunity a hundred miles away, and you pursue it and move there...have they ‘lost’ you? I believe the answer is no. I think ‘lose you’ equates more to ‘cutting off’, ‘disowning’, putting a stop to all communication with them, rejecting them, etc. The default position is that you can have your cake & eat it to. You can absolutely, freely, at your own discretion live & make choices in accordance with what you want. Why add the added perspectives, engagements, thoughts, conversations of ‘losing’ each other? People move, live their dream, and can stay in touch as well. Also, if they display behavior which is not in accordance with feeling, you can communicate this to them, and let them be with it. You being open, accepting, patient, understanding...does not equate to allowing anyone to treat you poorly. This can be pointed out to them, calmly, without emotional reaction, because it is in accordance with feeling. They might ‘run away’ too, so to speak...but everyone comes back around to wanting to feel great...and apologizing, forgiving, for dumb shit we do comes into play. It is the relief, the acceptance & understanding. It is not condoning or encouraging the repeating of such behaviors in relationships. 

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It's not that they don't want me, but that they don't want the newer version of me.

I think if you scrutinize & inspect you’ll find they love you & you love them. I think what they don’t want boils down to some behaviors, some things that were said, the way some things were handled. 

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But I do realise now how freaky it must be if the guy they know to be such and such suddenly changes big time. I should have handled it more diplomatic, but was not able to at that moment.

Indeed. Been there a few hundred times myself lol. Will likely be there again soon!  But I will then acknowledge it, express it be it to someone effected or on paper for myself to see, and then understand it...and focus, concentration, etc are again unobstructed, and the dream is manifesting, and good feeling is again present and abounds, much more so even than before the experience. Good feeling that is contagious, infectious, undeniable. Good feeling that builds dreams, that creates. 

We can not ‘beat up on ourselves’ for a past. I mean we can, but it is needless, pointless & fruitless suffering. The actuality, the reality is, we’re moving forward. There is no pause or rewind button on experience. So we must move forward. This means we learn new depths to things like forgiveness, understanding, self love, other love, one love. I do not mean or intend here to imply this equates to staying with anyone or not.  

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The 'it' I used to combine the whole situation, thoughts, interactions, ... I'm not a native English speaker, so I guess I rape this language sometimes.

The long road... I shouldn't have said that because it will make my spiritual path longer. I guess I said it like that to express that I don't feel enlightened or even spiritually advanced. I feel like a little kid when it's about these topics, a baby even.

We have to experience. That’s how we actually learn. When we let go of what doesn’t resonate (thoughts), doesn’t serve us, is not aligned with our source & our dream for our life, we are consciously creating. There is no better feeling or experience, and letting good is effortless. 

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Thank you again. Reading your words did a lot to me.

Thank you. I’m experiencing & learning too. I appreciate you.