Does the relative world exist?

[andyjohnsonman]

I was just on The Buddha at the Gas Pump facebook forum and the topic of spirtuality and politics came up. I got in a conversation with someone who said,  "Non-duality is knowing that you are not the human, you've always thought yourself to be... and that all other things outside of you, including humans, left and right wings.. flowers, birds, trees".

 

I told her that there is a relative world in which pragmatic survival is on the line and decisions need to be made.

She said its all an illusion and there is no difference between left and right wing.

I said that the oneness holds all which includes duality, which means that there is dualism within non dualism and Im focussing on that dualism within non dualism which she is disregardiing.

She couldnt seem to get past the fact that its all an illusion and therefore voting is pointless. 

 

Is the relative world an illusion? The Yn Yang symbol signifies dualism within non duality all of which are happening and real. 

I tried to explain this by asking if there is no dualism then why is there night and day? There is a relative world that is wrapped up within the non dual world even if it is an illusion from the relative perspective it is real.

 

She could only see the non dual absolute persective and there fore thought why vote. I then said if everything is one then why eat? Because there is only you. 

 

What do you think to this conversation?

 

Who is right?

 

On a brighter note this forum is much less argumentative. I think its because it isn't a live forum like on facebook. The live feel somehow seems to bring about more dogmatism even from me!

[SilentTears]

This is a great post. I enjoyed reading. 
Both of you are right in you both point to truths. 
if you stay within the non dual perspective then it’s all pointless. One needs to come back to the dual to live. 
people usually go through a non dual awakening and then come back to the dual even more whole and complete as they know they don’t exist, are all one, yet still love this so much they are able to change the now which is being experienced.

it’s all growth on the spiritual path. 
You can definitely view the world as all one however that will only take you so far. Definitely coming back to the dual helps you integrate your awakenings and grow so much more. 

 

[andyjohnsonman]

Yea i thought so. She was being quite closed minded and not being able to see this point. I feel that this is a trap in this work. I remember this stage green hippie in India was late for the boat that we were all waiting for. He said dont worry time is a construct in absolute oneness. I was like maybe thats the case but we are here right now and the other 20 people on the boat have all agreed to these rules of imagination so quickly get on the boat so we can go sightseeing!

[traveler]

There is no such thing as nonduality. It points to what it is not: duality. Nonduality is not the opposite of duality. This misinterpretation is the duality which is pointed to.

[SilentTears]

Nice profile picture @traveler

@andyjohnsonman ah blissful ignorance. Was once like that when I went through my awakening. “Why aren’t you all in love? He died! Who cares! Smile and laugh with me” 

yeah it’s a phase. It will pass for most people and tbh it’s just a different worldview. Neither are more correct then the other however one can be more pure then the other. 
 

understanding that both are just functions within this oneness is being able to be at peace no matter what. 

edit: The factor which made you speak of that guy on the boat was about him being stuck in his own energy and being inconsiderate to other people’s worldview. 
 

just like anyone else we as spiritual people also learn to develop an awareness of others once we balance and understand ourselves. 

he was still incomplete. 
 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by SilentTears

[andyjohnsonman]

2 minutes ago, SilentTears said:

Nice profile picture @traveler

@andyjohnsonman ah blissful ignorance. Was once like that when I went through my awakening. “Why aren’t you all in love? He died! Who cares! Smile and laugh with me” 

yeah it’s a phase. It will pass for most people and tbh it’s just a different worldview. Neither are more correct then the other however one can be more pure then the other. 
 

understanding that both are just functions within this oneness is being able to be at peace no matter what. 
 

 

You sound very stage yellow ?

[SilentTears]

1 minute ago, andyjohnsonman said:

You sound very stage yellow ?

Thank you, I felt very good energy from this. I appreciate the compliment. You have nice energy. I hope you develop smoothly on your path.  
 

 

[andyjohnsonman]

Yea I felt terrible energy when I was on the forum talking to her. Generally I dont get that on this forum. I wonder what thats all about? Could it be that Im in my comfort zone on he actualized forum and im just getting confirmation bias? Or maybe its the lack of the live chat function. Also i feel actualized looks at the psychology of people as well as spirituality. And this forum is policed.

[Emerald]

This is a common trap that people fall into when trying to live from a non-dual perspective.

They want to create a clear distinction between duality and non-duality... which means that they're not being non-dual. 

You said it well. There is a relative reality that exists within the absolute reality, and the truths of that relative reality should not be bypassed or demoted in importance. We have to live this life, even with its illusory nature.

And it is that hierarchical thinking of 'non-duality versus duality' and creating a distinction that shifts away from the non-dual perspective. And distinction between non-duality and duality is a dualistic perspective. In the same way that the infinite and finite are both part of the infinite, the non-dual and dual are both part of the non-dual. That's the paradoxical nature of the Dao. 

And I would wager a guess that she is probably not consistent with disengaging from duality.

I mean, I'm sure that she still eats. That's something that happens within the context of the illusion of maya and in the dualistic world.

So, she buys into the illusion enough to continue eating because she recognizes that she needs to engage in duality that way for her own survival. But she won't buy into the illusion of politics on the basis that it is illusory thing, which is an inconsistent perspective.

If she had some other reason for not engaging in politics we could weigh that based on the merit of that argument. I would likely disagree with that argument still. But at least we could weigh it out on its merits.

But if she is saying, "politics is all part of the illusion of maya, and therefore not worth my consideration." Then, that's just inconsistent because there are bound to be aspects of maya that she participates in and takes into consideration. So, her perspective amounts to a kind of spiritual bypassing.

And if we take her perspective to the nth degree, would she have the same perspective if she were a Jewish person living during the holocaust? I think not. If her awareness of the illusory nature of politics doesn't extend to more extreme situations where it is her life on the chopping block, she is just sticking her head in the sand. 

[Willie]

Some people don’t see politics as necessary to their survival. It’s just a perspective. 

[Osaid]

it's time to summon the legendary cartoon

 

[VeganAwake]

Um This is why it's called Awakening.

The relative or dualistic perception is clearly recognized to have never been ultimately real from the start... hence why it's called illusion or Maya.

Of course it seems very real within the dream story identified as a separate individual within the body.

So in a sense it's real and unreal..

Real because it's apparently what's being experienced prior to Awakening.

Unreal because it lacks in Ultimate Reality post Awakening.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

 

Um This is why it's called Awakening

 

???

[andyjohnsonman]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

They want to create a clear distinction between duality and non-duality

To be fair to her she wasnt creating a duality because her stance was that there is no relativity its all an illusion the only thing that actually exists is the absolute. So she thought I was lost in duality which she kept saying. I responded by saying it's impossible not to as language by its very nature is dualistic. She rolled her eyes at this because to her it isnt dualistic as it is an illusion within the one. At this point I had to end the conversation as I feel we weren't getting anywhere. 

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

To be fair to her she wasnt creating a duality because her stance was that there is no relativity its all an illusion the only thing that actually exists is the absolute. So she thought I was lost in duality which she kept saying. I responded by saying it's impossible not to as language by its very nature is dualistic. She rolled her eyes at this because to her it isnt dualistic as it is an illusion within the one. At this point I had to end the conversation as I feel we weren't getting anywhere. 

Well does language being dualistic in nature confirm that dualism or relativity is real?

This is why Enlightenment is often referred to as "A lifting of the Veil"... this phrase is pointing to the Revelation that Enlightenment is already the case but clearly not recognized until it is. ❤

[andyjohnsonman]

Im not saying relativity is real but that it is there and shouldn't be dismissed or bypassed by just saying it's all an illusion so forget about everything relative and just bask in oneness all the time.

[Mu_]

@andyjohnsonman  hmmm, fun conversation.  I've been on both sides of that position in my life.  Can't say what either of you fully understand in the meaning of these terms, but if you see non duality as a larger container thats separate +containing duality and perhaps also containing someone called "andyjohnsonman" then you have not penetrated yet into the understanding that non of these are separate and thus dont exist as individual parts creating a whole.  There's just "complete", not non-dual+duality+"andy".  This doesn't then give answers to the debate your having of how to live, thats almost a mute point if you get the prior.

[LfcCharlie4]

Duality isn't a problem for someone who truly understands & embodies 'Non-Duality' 

If you still see Duality & dismiss it, it's like having a thorn in your shoe and continuously ignoring it

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

I told her that there is a relative world in which pragmatic survival is on the line and decisions need to be made.

She said its all an illusion and there is no difference between left and right wing.

All difference is imaginary from the perspective of Absolute consciousness. But this is not the place we live life from.

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She couldnt seem to get past the fact that its all an illusion and therefore voting is pointless. 

This is her mistake. Because no matter how much she holds this position, her body and mind still must survive in the relative world.

Voting is pointless if you don't care about dying and suffering. But of course you care extremely much about dying and suffering. Even if you are enlightened you STILL care about minimizing the suffering of others.

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Is the relative world an illusion?

Yes, it is of course an illusion. But when illusion is all that can ever exist, this point isn't as strong as she thinks.

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She could only see the non dual absolute persective and there fore thought why vote.

This is a common trap, to conflate relative matters with absolute matters.

Just because you understand nonduality does not mean that your mind will properly reason about society or politics.

Telling spiritual people not to vote is extremely irresponsible and ignorant, no matter how enlightened you are. Enlightenment does not automatically grant sound political reasoning.

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Who is right?

All survival happens in the relative domain.

If you give up the relative domain, you must also give up survival. You can do that, but do you really understand the severity of what you're doing?

When your child is being raped, are you gonna be okay with that? << Those are the real stakes here. That's what politics boils down to. It's very serious stuff. Contrary to what most people think, politics is about as serious a topic as there could be. It's all about life and death and suffering. Which is why people get so ideological about it. If it wasn't important people would not become political radicals.

And the choice to do nothing, politically-speaking, is still a choice. So you cannot escape politics. Politics will happen regardless, even if you decided to ignore it.

Basically she's being an ostrich sticking her head in the sand, hoping that someone else will solve all the political problems while she basks in the Absolute. Which is actually a selfish position.

[andyjohnsonman]

great response Leo thanks