Leo’s Beautiful Endless Wonderland

[Nahm]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

I agree. Yes you are right. There already is no self and yet the body somehow functions consistently. But I don't think it will function well if even the sense of being a self dissolved like for example when someone is drunk. 

 

This is a subject object causal thought narrative. That there is a body functioning. ‘Sense of being a self’ is a poor term. Thought narrative of being a body, or self, is more accurate. 

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This is a subject object causal thought narrative. That there is a body functioning. ‘Sense of being a self’ is a poor term. Thought narrative of being a body, or self, is more accurate. 

Ofcourse there is a body functioning. We have to agree on a certain way to describe what's going on. If you are going to toss away everything as thought narrative (not actually happening) we can't have a convo. I can also say that thought narrative is not really thought narrative lol. 

So do you agree that the "thought narrative of being a self is necessary for the body to survive"? 

I don't have to put every word into quotes right lol? 

22 hours ago, James123 said:

You still have self for you, but there is no self. If there was no self for you, you wouldn’t be questioning. Everything is you, because you are nothing. This is death brother, now is death, there is no brushing teeth or brushing teeth is identical with birth. Brother, You still name and label  the words, these are not even words. Thats why you asking that how can I brush my teeth? But you think it is a word, therefore you are questioning that how can i brush my teeth? Your birth, body, universe, just is a thought. Thats why i am saying, get awaken, than you will thank to me, which is yourself.?

What you are trying to say has some validity into it. Do you mean it just that language is not the territory or something else? Because obviously there is a teeth and a Me and a you and a universe etc.. Only that these things are not the labels themselves right? 

"if you don't think nothing ever happened" in a way is true and in a way is bullshit. 

[Nahm]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Ofcourse there is a body functioning. We have to agree on a certain way to describe what's going on. If you are going to toss away everything as thought narrative (not actually happening) we can't have a convo. I can also say that thought narrative is not really thought narrative lol. 

Body is a thought. Functioning is a thought. These thoughts appear. What these thoughts appear to be about, is the very same appearance. 

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So do you agree that the "thought narrative of being a self is necessary for the body to survive"? 

Someone agreeing is irrelevant. Inspecting & bringing an end to the believing of thoughts is relevant. 

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I don't have to put every word into quotes right lol? 

Being attentive to what one is presently inattentive to is ample. It’s not about the communication of the doing of it. 

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What you are trying to say has some validity into it. Do you mean it just that language is not the territory or something else? Because obviously there is a teeth and a Me and a you and a universe etc.. Only that these things are not the labels themselves right? 

Those are thoughts. There is not a teeth and a me and a you and a universe. 

Quote

"if you don't think nothing ever happened" in a way is true and in a way is bullshit. 

Yes, it’s true. The ‘you’ accredited is bs. (“It’s” just another “thought”).

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Body is a thought. Functioning is a thought. These thoughts appear. What these thoughts appear to be about, is the very same appearance. 

Someone agreeing is irrelevant. Inspecting & bringing an end to the believing of thoughts is relevant. 

Being attentive to what one is presently inattentive to is ample. It’s not about the communication of the doing of it. 

Those are thoughts. There is not a teeth and a me and a you and a universe. 

Yes, it’s true. The ‘you’ accredited is bs. (“It’s” just another “thought”).

This is not a post. So I can't respond 

 the Nahm's logic is unbearable lol jk 

I have to agree tho that everything is thought expect food and water and air (survival) lol. 

[Nahm]

@Someone here ?

Without the carving out of the separate things (food, water, air), which support the separate me, there’s no causations, no determinism, no survival. The separate things are thoughts of separate things, and the thoughts appear & disappear, and are not actually things. Without the monkey mind of causation, determinism, survival and the separate self, it begins to be recognized there is a whole of experience, one “substance” of dream. An appearance inseparable of the awareness of “it”. 

[Someone here]

@Nahm it doesn't take too much intelligence to recognize this "thought narrative" trap you are pointing to.

It's mostly done for learning and communicating . We are having a conversation on an online forum. I know that's not what's actually happening but it is what's actually happening from a certain pov which seems to be pleasant and easy for the the collective mind.

Everything you ever say is also thought. So why are you placing much importance on thoughts about the invalidity of thoughts rather than thoughts about the validity of thoughts? Either all is meaningless thoughts or don't Cherry pick. If you going to cherry pick choose what's compatible with direct experience. 

 

Then comes what you call inspecting direct experience or investigating reality. 

 There is a body here. Period. "I don't just use my mind.. I use my senses also". Saying there is no body is...... what do you mean there is no body and no teeth? I can see them. Maybe the labeling is going too far. And you can't open your mouth if you don't label. But we are communicating. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Someone here

[James123]

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

The world in which I live does not have opposites, true or false, this or that. When I speak of the mind I’m also aware there is no mind. When I speak of no mind, I’m also aware there is a mind (and an infinite number of partial mindish)

Where is it? What is mind? 

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

10 hours ago, James123 said:

 

So simple and not so simple. Claiming “this is how it is” creates a category of “this, which is” and “that, which is not”. That can be great in one context and not-so-great in another context.

You are right. Imo, direct way is the easiest way. But maybe not. 

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

You use a lot of declarative statements like “is”, “will”, “because”, “so”, “never” “always”. This can provide grounding for insights, yet it comes at the cost of groundless fluidity. I’m not saying it‘s false. It’s true, false and partially true.

Sorry about that. English is my 2. Language. So i might not be able to perfectly explain the situation.

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

pon “return” there was awareness of the emergence of thoughts and thought construction.

There was no returning. 

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

What you describe can be realized with or without psychedelics. As well, once the body-mind ingests psychedelics it can no longer attribute any subsequent realizations to non-psychedelic since one doesn’t know the impact previous psychedelic experiences had. Any realization / awakening I’ve had, I cannot say that it was psychedelic-free - even if it appears while sober. 

Did your questioning has been stopped permanently? Did you merged with moment permanently?  Did monkey mind become just a fragment or thought  permanently?  If answer is yes, so you are right you can be awaken with psychedelics.

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Prior to my first trip, I spent about 20 years sitting in meditation seeking the awakening you describe. It never came, until I did 5Meo. So what you claim is not purely true in all contexts. Yet I also had the post-trip contextualizations you describe. And I also found it helpful to integrate trips, meditation, yoga and time in nature together. 

10 hours ago, James123 said:

I have lost my everything that connects me to life. Only God was left.

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

You seem to be normalizing personal experiences. Ime, I noticed this when I was in an intermediate stage of transcending “me” and “experience”. Here, one doesn’t want to call it “my experience” because there is a partial realization of transcendence and desire to be transcended. So there is resistance to refer to things as “my experience”. Yet the opposite of that is extrapolating it as a normative truth with the use of a universal “you”.

These comes from my observations of people, who are in the form, just trying to help them. I” or “you” dont matter, identical. I dont pay attention so much whatever i write as long as message has been sent. There is no universal me, just the moment. There is no desire, monkey mind doesn’t work as separate than me. I am already what i am. I say you because i point out to “you”. 

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

What you describe, is similar to some of my experiences with psychedelics and is totally off with other of my experiences. I think what you write has a lot of value in many cases, yet you aren’t aware of how you are normalizing experiences you are creating. This is what I was referring to in being immersed within the creation of one’s own experiential context at the cost of peripheral awareness. It’s similar to Ram Dass’ experience and story of psychedelics and awakening. I’m not saying it’s wrong. It’s true within that experiential story. It’s just so immersed that is loses awareness of what is “outside” that experiential story. There is even a loss of awareness that it is an experiential story and it gets extrapolated and normalized to “this is how it is”. 

I will check Ram Dass experience. Do you mean by this sentence, whatever i wrote in my topic has no environmental value? 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by James123

[mandyjw]

@Someone here For some reason your avatar reminds me of this video so much. 

[Nahm]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

it doesn't take too much intelligence to recognize this "thought narrative" trap you are pointing to....

Then comes what you call inspecting direct experience or investigating reality. 

 There is a body here. Period.

Let the paradigm of levels & claiming of intelligence go. Then it is readily seen that ‘body’ is a thought, or a separate thing. 

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

"I don't just use my mind.. I use my senses also".

Subject (you) objects (what ‘you’ uses). That is only apparent in thinking. 

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Saying there is no body is...... what do you mean there is no body and no teeth?

There isn’t. This is thought attachment. 

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I can see them.

Subject (I) causation (can see) object (them). That only appears to transpire in thinking. It is not “out here”, so to speak. 

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Maybe the labeling is going too far. And you can't open your mouth if you don't label. But we are communicating. 

Labels are great for communicating in a dream. Believing the labels are the things, is missing the dream. 

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here ?

Without the carving out of the separate things (food, water, air), which support the separate me, there’s no causations, no determinism, no survival. The separate things are thoughts of separate things, and the thoughts appear & disappear, and are not actually things. Without the monkey mind of causation, determinism, survival and the separate self, it begins to be recognized there is a whole of experience, one “substance” of dream. An appearance inseparable of the awareness of “it”. 

I agree but believe it or no that's one way of looking at it out of infinite ways and they are all valid. 

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Infinite ways is nothing. 

Contemplate, if interested...self actualization, is the realization ‘self’ is nothing. 

What would there be for infinite nothing....to know?

Nothing. 

Nothing can not be validated, or de-validated, because it’s nothing...no one to do so. 

 

No one gets off the carousel of thinking. 

(A not-too-shabby title call back ?)

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Where is it? What is mind? 

In the context of no mind, there is no where or what of mind. The construct of “mind” is a model that is useful in some contexts. I like explorations of no mind as well as explorations of mind. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Did your questioning has been stopped permanently? Did you merged with moment permanently?  Did monkey mind become just a fragment or thought  permanently? 

It depends on how we define “stopped”, “permanently”, “monkey mind” and “thought”. Thera are many forms we could create. For example, there are a dozen forms of “monkey mind” we could discuss. There is also wandering mind. And various levels of brightness. And there is also no mind. 

In the most common usage of these terms, I would say questioning has transformed. Rather than questions appearing with seeking energy to figure out an answer, questions appear more for curiosity of exploration - without expectation for an answer.

For example, while hiking in nature the question may arise “How is this a microcosm of a macrocosm?”. That can plant a seed for all sorts of appearances. The solar system may be revealed in a blade of grass. . . Yet it’s not like there is an expectation or desire to have some definitive answer by the end of the hike. 

Or being in a House of Mirrors and asking “which way is right?”. And then laughing and exploring the house. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

These comes from my observations of people, who are in the form, just trying to help them. I” or “you” dont matter, identical. I dont pay attention so much whatever i write as long as message has been sent. There is no universal me, just the moment. There is no desire, monkey mind doesn’t work as separate than me. I am already what i am. I say you because i point out to “you”. 

I observe similar and agree it is helpful.

There can be subconscious experiential bias without conscious awareness it. I may think “I don’t exist. Experiences don’t exist. Experiences only arise now”. Yet then I speak as if I had experiences that existed. This is being immersed in content without the awareness of context. I’m not saying it’s good or bad to speak as if “I had experiences”, I’m referring to the awareness of it happening.  I often speak as if I’ve had experiences and sometimes I zoom into that content, “forget” and subconsciously believe it’s “my experience”. Similar to staring at a candle and becoming so immersed in the content of the candle that there is forgetting that there is a more expansive space in which the candle resides. You mentioned being mesmerized by psychedelic phenomena. There is also being mesmerized by non-psychedelic phenomena. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

I will check Ram Dass experience. Do you mean by this sentence, whatever i wrote in my topic has no environmental value? 

In my view it has immense value. Yet there is also lot of variability with psychedelics. I think you are pointing to a common dynamic and trap people have with psychedelics. Yet there are other contexts as well. There are areas in which psychedelic “wonderland” and sober “non-wonderland” break down. The “two worlds” can dance and merge together. 

If I enter a thoughtless flow of Nowness during yoga, is that an independent “sober” arising or is it related to a 5-meo trip I had last month? Without that 5-meo trip, would that thoughtless flow of Nowness arise? And what if I was on a micro dose of 10ug LSD during the yoga - does it still count as a thoughtless flow of Nowness? Or do we discredit it because there are traces of psychedelic molecules in the body? I’ve connected with sober people as if we were tripping and I paused to ask myself “Did I take a mini-dose this morning? Am I having a mild flashback?” When I am running, sometimes it feels like a low dose of psychedelics. When I am sitting on a low dose of psychedelics, sometimes it feels like I am running. Lucid dreams, sober reality and psychedelic “wonderlands” can melt together. How do we determine what counts as “psychedelic” and “non-psychedelic?”. 

Yet these are nuances into the “nitty gritty”. In another context, it’s common for seekers to create “two worlds” of psychedelic and non-psychedelic - and in some respects that’s true. If I took 100ug of LSD right now, conscious state would be transformed in some respects. In a practical sense, psychedelics can be a distraction and counter-productive to a goal. This is in the context of progress toward a thing. 

I may relate to cats as being dangerous and try to help people form the risks of cats. This may be colored by my experience with cats. Perhaps I got scratched by nasty cats and the wounds got infected. As well, there are environments in which cats are dangerous. There are environments with feral cats that cause disease. I may start noticing all the people that have issues with cats. I can become immersed in this content and lose awareness of greater context that there are many other manifestations of cats. 

[bejapuskas]

@Someone here  Whether you can have a conversation with someone doesn't have any epistemological value. Being able to hold a conversation doesn't make you an authority. It doesn't help you with knowing anything. It doesn't mean you are right or anything like that. Nahm can toss away everything, he is a very strong guy  

[James123]

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

n the context of no mind, there is no where or what of mind. The construct of “mind” is a model that is useful in some contexts. I like explorations of no mind as well as explorations of mind

Mind has no differences than a chair. Because it’s just a thought, therefore no mind. 

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

t depends on how we define “stopped”, “permanently”, “monkey mind” and “thought”. Thera are many forms we could create. For example, there are a dozen forms of “monkey mind” we could discuss. There is also wandering mind. And various levels of brightness. And there is also no mind. 

Thoughts represents duality. There is no mind.

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

n the most common usage of these terms, I would say questioning has transformed. Rather than questions appearing with seeking energy to figure out an answer, questions appear more for curiosity of exploration - without expectation for an answer.

For example, while hiking in nature the question may arise “How is this a microcosm of a macrocosm?”. That can plant a seed for all sorts of appearances. The solar system may be revealed in a blade of grass. . . Yet it’s not like there is an expectation or desire to have some definitive answer by the end of the hike. 

 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

This is not the case for me, thoughts doesn’t tell me what to do, feelings express themselves. Such as, feeling of wanting of listen music appears than i listen music. If there’s a problem in the moment, i think and talk, but as soon as if there’s no need to think, mind becomes quite. There is no imagination, future expectations or unwanted thoughts occurs if i dont want to. Thats why I usually stay in moment. Effortlessly. 

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Or being in a House of Mirrors and asking “which way is right?”. And then laughing and exploring the hous

Of course this happens to me too. So much fun.

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

There can be subconscious experiential bias without conscious awareness it. I may think “I don’t exist. Experiences don’t exist. Experiences only arise now”. Yet then I speak as if I had experiences that existed. This is being immersed in content without the awareness of context

Past and experienced is just a thought as world . I dont pay attention on them. There is no difference of any word for me because there is mo person to take personally. I am the thoughts and every thought is available in the moment and identical. 

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

There is also being mesmerized by non-psychedelic phenomena. 

Imo,it is the truth, it is the way it is. But being free or freedom of truth can be mesmerizing. But this is what you get from Truth or become truth. 

 

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If I enter a thoughtless flow of Nowness during yoga, is that an independent “sober” arising or is it related to a 5-meo trip I had last month? Without that 5-meo trip, would that thoughtless flow of Nowness arise? And what if I was on a micro dose of 10ug LSD during the yoga - does it still count as a thoughtless flow of Nowness? Or do we discredit it because there are traces of psychedelic molecules in the body? I’ve connected with sober people as if we were tripping and I paused to ask myself “Did I take a min-dose this morning? Am I having a mild flashback?” When I am running, sometimes it seems like a low dose of psychedelics. When I am sitting on a low dose of psychedelics, sometimes it seems like I am running. Lucid dreams, sober reality and psychedelic “wonderlands” can melt together. How do we determine what counts as “psychedelic” and “non-psychedelic?

Because psychedelics are you. If there is no naming and labeling the thoughts, can it make any differences on your state of consciousness ?

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If I took 100ug of LSD right now, conscious state would be transformed in some respects. 

If you can not to think, there will be no differences. Because if your view changes , you still naming and labeling the “view”, “conscious state”, “being transformed”. If there is no thoughts, can it be any difference? Or if you dont name and label any thoughts, can it be any difference?

Edited December 14, 2020 by James123

[Javfly33]

@Nahm So Nahm doesn't really exist. It's just appearances happening. This appearances write a message, and I use the label (thought) "Nahm" to describe the illusory self that has written the message. 

So basically I'm just writing to myself when Nahm replies to a post.

Is there any kind of free will in your experience? 

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Someone here For some reason your avatar reminds me of this video so much. 

It should tho because I am that guy in the video and the girl also. And I am Nahm and Leo and I am YOU ofcourse lol. So everyone should remind you of everyone. 

Kinda ruins the whole game when you are conscious enough to realize you are all people. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Someone here

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Mind has no differences than a chair. Because it’s just a thought, therefore no mind. 

Thoughts represents duality. There is no mind.

In this context, sure

1 hour ago, James123 said:

This is not the case for me, thoughts doesn’t tell me what to do, feelings express themselves. Such as, feeling of wanting of listen music appears than i listen music. If there’s a problem in the moment, i think and talk, but as soon as if there’s no need to think, mind becomes quite. There is no imagination, future expectations or unwanted thoughts occurs if i dont want to. Thats why I usually stay in moment. Effortlessly. 

It seems a lot of humans have problematic relationships with thoughts. There are other relationships in which thoughts aren’t “thought-ish”, they merge and dance with feelings, intuition, empathy, energetic. Like a musical band when all the instruments merge together to create a song. Sometimes it’s nice to have a guitar in the song, sometimes is nice to leave it out. Sometimes guitar solos are nice, other times the guitar in the background is nice. Sometimes we let go of attention to the guitar and become aware of the whole song. . . . Yet I often see people have difficulties associated with thoughts.

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Past and experienced is just a thought as world . I dont pay attention on them. There is no difference of any word for me because there is mo person to take personally. I am the thoughts and every thought is available in the moment and identical. 

That wasn’t my impression of how you were describing psychedelics. It seemed like there were subconscious referential experiences. For example, you weren’t describing how to scuba dive in the Great Barrier Reef of Australia while knitting a sweater. 

If every thought is identical then the post you wrote about how psychedelics can be a distraction to awakening would be identical to a post describing how to prepare a tuna fish sandwich. In one context this is true, yet not in another context. 

And this is dependent upon what a “thought” is. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

If you can not to think, there will be no differences. Because if your view changes , you still naming and labeling the “view”, “conscious state”, “being transformed”.

Thoughts are one form of difference creation. There are many forms of difference. Rabbits create “differences” without thoughts. Yet relative to thinking, these wouldn’t count as “differences”. 

In some contexts, there is no such *thing* as a thought. There are spaces in which “thoughts” are no longer “thoughts”, they are inter-connected with “feelings”, “emotions”, “intuition”, “images”, “objects” etc. It would be like observing a painting and then trying to separate out all the colors and say this color is a “thought” and doesn’t belong in the painting.

Yet on the human level, so-called thoughts can be problematic and cause a lot of mind-body distress. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

If there is no naming and labeling the thoughts, can it make any differences on your state of consciousness ?

Yes, but not in the way you seem to be defining “difference” and “state of consciousness”

1 hour ago, James123 said:

If there is no thoughts, can it be any difference? Or if you dont name and label any thoughts, can it be any difference?

Yes, but not in the construct you’ve created of “thought” and “difference”. If we create a thing called a “thought”, it is only one form of difference. There are “thoughtless” spaces of difference, yet it’s not a “thought difference”, so in your construct it wouldn’t qualify as a “difference”. 

It would be like removing the guitar player and saying there is no longer a difference between the guitar player and trumpet player. Of course not, we just removed the the guitar player. Likewise, if we remove “thoughts” there won’t be “thought-based” differences. 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

If there is no naming and labeling the thoughts

If there is no naming and labeling “the” thoughts, thoughts are no longer “thoughts”. They are what we create them to be. 

And everything I’ve written here is “wrong” from another “perspective”. 

[Nahm]

34 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Nahm So Nahm doesn't really exist. It's just appearances happening.
 

Appearance, not plural, and not even. 

34 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

This appearances write a message, and I use the label (thought) "Nahm" to describe the illusory self that has written the message. 

Appearance doesn’t do (write). 

34 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

So basically I'm just writing to myself when Nahm replies to a post.

No. 

34 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Is there any kind of free will in your experience? 

No. 

[mandyjw]

29 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It should tho because I am that guy in the video and the girl also.

 I think it's just the hair. 

30 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Kinda ruins the whole game when you are conscious enough to realize you are all people. 

Only when you're in love.

"I can't feel my face when I'm with you. But I love it." 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

@Someone here  Whether you can have a conversation with someone doesn't have any epistemological value. Being able to hold a conversation doesn't make you an authority. It doesn't help you with knowing anything. It doesn't mean you are right or anything like that. Nahm can toss away everything, he is a very strong guy  

He can but then when the mind is silent what is not thoughts reveals itself.  After all reality is not made of thoughts. Body is a thought but there is a body. If you are too smart and nondual to not understand what I'm trying to communicate by saying ' there is a body' then you have to take a step back. Sometimes trying to be so accurate ends up with losing the actuality.