A Critical Perspective on the Spirituality Practiced Here

[Synchronicity]

I consider this perspective very valuable and beneficial. Coming from a person whose posts are as meta and impractical as yours truly, I still never discount the importance of “spiritual minimalism” in balancing out “spiritual maximalism.” 
 

It can be very easy to get distracted by the more outlandish teachings that stray away from the development of what you’re calling Pure Presence. So I find your position to be a great tool for making sure that one stays focused on the core practices. I’m an advocate for this as well. 
 

With all that said, I also want to weigh in that some of the more “impractical” content can be and has been just as beneficial to some people as the core work - and I’m not just talking about people in the far-off worlds that I claim to be immersed in. I mean that it’s even been beneficial to the human livelihood that’s experienced right here. 
 

Not everyone will benefit from it but people are diverse. Some will. 
 

I may be preaching to the choir as that’s probably something you’re already well-aware of. I just figured it was worth mentioning in light of what you said  earlier about how the term “spirituality” is used to refer to both consciousness-work and “Casper.” 
 

I don’t consider that a misappropriation of the term spirituality because all other fields are equally diverse. To name just one example, the term Science can apply to both the practical study of Child Behavior as well as the ultimate Fate of the Cosmos (which is entirely impractical within the context of immediate human life). 
 

Therefore, I don’t see why spirituality couldn’t similarly be such a broad and diverse field. This is another reason why I consider core consciousness-work and your perspective to be very valuable. It contributes priceless worth to the field. 

[SpiritualAwakening]

 

14 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

how do you feel about what I say?  

I think you're absolutely right, even though there is a certain broadness and depth to the Absolute Truth. Because there's a difference between freeing your mind and opening your heart, these are two different experiences and I've spoken to different people having 1 experience first and 2nd experience later or both at once etc. Then there's also the depths of realizations (INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE MIND) where one could see all one is is consciousness (an experience with God) or see that YOU ARE IT, ITSELF (An experience as God) (Using the word God for seekers will also be misunderstood). The word awakening to me has no worth and/or is not worth of using with this work. Because if one doesn't see he's "asleep" (which he is) how does one "wake up" (FIRST I MUST SEE, ONLY THEN CAN I ACT).

 

14 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

relate to your spirituality? 

I don't even know what this word means. What I directly experienced related to my path because it had everything to do with a full conscious processing of past trauma from the subconscious (By bringing that trauma to the NOW and facing it as is instead of building some coping mechanism unconsciously)

14 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

I think with drugs and even in sober reality, there is a vast ability for people to ascribe narrative and significance to reality that is simply falsehood.  I think people underestimate how much they tend to mythologize their own experiences, spiritual people are some of the worst offenders of this.  

You are definitely right. One could really delude oneself if one isn't conscious enough in the moment. For example me and my girl could have been pointing outward and blaming external entities for what we experienced, that's why it's so important to always look inward.

Edited December 16, 2020 by SpiritualAwakening

[electroBeam]

Keep in mind that everything you've written is a perspective. Perspectives are FINITE. Finite means they begin, but also end. Everything that's finite is not superior to anything else that is finite, because at some stage that finite thing will end, and another finite thing will begin. You love this perspective now, because it has begun, but you will not love it anymore when it ends, whether it ends because you get sick of that perspective, or you reincarnate into someone who likes a different perspective.

I could debate you on exactly how I think you're wrong on every point, and I would be totally and completely correct from my perspective, but the bigger picture is realizing that what you and I believe are perspectives that both have a beginning, but also come to an end.

[Heart of Space]

9 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Keep in mind that everything you've written is a perspective. Perspectives are FINITE. Finite means they begin, but also end. Everything that's finite is not superior to anything else that is finite, because at some stage that finite thing will end, and another finite thing will begin. You love this perspective now, because it has begun, but you will not love it anymore when it ends, whether it ends because you get sick of that perspective, or you reincarnate into someone who likes a different perspective.

I could debate you on exactly how I think you're wrong on every point, and I would be totally and completely correct from my perspective, but the bigger picture is realizing that what you and I believe are perspectives that both have a beginning, but also come to an end.

You are correct about the nature of perspective.  Everyone has a finite subjective experience, which is why open mindedness can be extremely important especially in the realm of spirituality.  That's why I was careful to word this so that people understand that I am not attacking them and simply sharing a subjective point of view.  Ultimately it's up to the individual reading my post whether or not it resonates with them and I'm totally fine with that.  

That being said, you can say the same thing about language in general, yet wouldn't you agree that we can have reasonable discussions about the most pragmatic and effective way to communicate?  Ultimately we could all cop out of the debate with something similar to your response here and ultimately be right in doing so.  Not to mention, the idea that it is a good idea to stick a knife in your eye is a perspective, surely you would debate a person suggesting this?

Also, what you say in your response to me is a perspective as well.  The subjective nature of perspective does not stop me or many others from having the discussion, nor should it.  

Edited December 18, 2020 by Heart of Space

[electroBeam]

48 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

You are correct about the nature of perspective.  Everyone has a finite subjective experience, which is why open mindedness can be extremely important especially in the realm of spirituality.  That's why I was careful to word this so that people understand that I am not attacking them and simply sharing a subjective point of view.  Ultimately it's up to the individual reading my post whether or not it resonates with them and I'm totally fine with that.  

That being said, you can say the same thing about language in general, yet wouldn't you agree that we can have reasonable discussions about the most pragmatic and effective way to communicate?  Ultimately we could all cop out of the debate with something similar to your response here and ultimately be right in doing so.  Not to mention, the idea that it is a good idea to stick a knife in your eye is a perspective, surely you would debate a person suggesting this?

Also, what you say in your response to me is a perspective as well.  The subjective nature of perspective does not stop me or many others from having the discussion, nor should it.  

You can debate, i didnt say you couldn't. 

But there's an underlying assumption in debates that there's an absolute correct answer that both parties have in common. There is a total lack of acknowledgement that people have different truths. And that lack of acknowledgement has limitations on the effectiveness of such communication. It limits ones ability to probe into understanding the other's position, as it is assumed that their position is the same as his/hers. The orientation is misguided from the outset because it is assumed that if this person has the same reality as me, and they dont get what im writing, then they must have blind spots, or be deluded somehow, when actually when one considers everyone's position is different and everyone has a different truth, one's mind opens up to possibilities beyond that such as their brain chemistry is different, personality differences, differences in emotional vibration or frequencies or energetic signatures. It could be possible that such a perspective is absolutely irrelevant to them due to such differences, no blindspots at all, just living in a different world or reality entirely, like a salvia user debating over what the universe is with a LSD user. Which is just an elaborate way of saying all perspectives are finite. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by electroBeam

[Heart of Space]

12 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

But there's an underlying assumption in debates that there's an absolute correct answer that both parties have in common. 

I assure you that is not an assumption that I have made during my participation in this thread.

Edit:  and I apologize for my brevity as I am on my phone qt work.  ?

Edited December 18, 2020 by Heart of Space

[TrippyMindSubstance]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:47 PM, Heart of Space said:

Use of psychedelics in certain contexts can result in the long run and added level of mental narrative and delusion.  If someone preaches Christianity to you while you're tripping you might very well become a Christian, this is a real example that I've seen happen.  In a similar vein you can go into a trip with all sorts of spiritual concepts and idea's you can color the narrative of your trip with those idea's, which then reinforces them as narrative and delusion in your sober life.

I'm so glad you brought this up because I don't think it's talked about enough. I think the fact that psychedelics can put you in such a suggestible state is one of their most powerful but also most dangerous/cunning effects. I imagine this could be useful in clinical settings for rewiring dysfunctional belief systems such as OCD or anorexia, but can be counterproductive in less controlled environments where you might just end up reinforcing your current beliefs or even accidentally taking on new ones such as the Christianity example. 

Ultimately though, I think that the true value of experiencing this suggestible state for yourself is that it exposes first hand that your ideas and beliefs truly create your experience. If you have one trip where you undoubtably see that Christianity is the truth, and then another trip that says the opposite, it just exposes the facts that our minds can take anything and run with it, and ultimately can't be trusted. I've had trips during different phases of my life, meaning I entered them with different spiritual concepts and ideas, and because of this, the trips brought me to some contradictory conclusions, that at the time each seemed final and complete in a way. I think this is what it means to not mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself. To truly believe one of the conclusions my mind came to would be to mistake the finger for the moon. To see the moon itself is to see how the mind comes to these conclusions, but realize that no matter how convincing it is, it is not the ultimate truth.

Depending on your current ideas, this realization is basically what it means to realize you're God. But even this understanding gets colored by the mind. When seen from a positive frame of mind, it's the most beautiful, liberating conclusion to realize it's all basically groundless and nothing really matters. When seen from a negative fear based state of mind, it's the most horrifying and depressing conclusion to realize nothing is real, you're all alone etc. 

I also would say this is what "once you get the message, hang up the phone" means. If you truly understand this, you realize that "I need to take psychedelics to find the truth" is just another idea and you following that line of thinking again means you are just buying into the minds bullshit again. With that, I would say that doing psychedelics the way Leo does is completely unnecessary and is just a way to get high and have fun by "going deeper", but obviously, all he's doing is going deeper into the mind, which is infinite. This is no different from physicists choosing to study the universe on deeper and deeper levels. There is no end. Both are completely valid ways of exploring our infinite existence. Leo prefers one approach, and the physicist prefers the other. These are just two of an infinite amount of ways that we can choose to occupy our minds and explore/create the universe. 

[Heart of Space]

@TrippyMindSubstance  I think we share a lot of feelings about psychedelics, you really hit the nail on the head for me.  Still I think a lot of people who use psychedelics as a spiritual tool need to hear things like what you just said dearly.  A lot of people get lost in delusion using psychedelics.  I will say though, if Leo says the his use of psychedelics works for him I will take his word on it.  But I probably do differ in my feelings on psychedelics from Leo to some degree for sure.  

 

@Synchronicity  "Not everyone will benefit from it but people are diverse. Some will. "

People are diverse, well said.  One absolutely should not and cannot tell another with absolute certainty that their approach is wrong.  However, I do think that it is extremely healthy to turn your skeptical eye to spiritual ideas and practices.  Radical open-mindedness is a great tool, but so is radical skepticism.  We often are told to question our fundamental assumptions about self and reality, this is the greatest form of skepticism.  People should engage in spiritual skepticism more in my opinion.  Question all your narrative in regards to your reality, nothing should escape that. 

I can really appreciate the fact that you seem very grounded, but are willing to explore 'out there' topics as well.  

 

@electroBeamYou bring up some valid points and very rightly lay out some of the limitations of what perspectives can bring.  I agree it is important to understand these limitations and as such I quite literally made this thread with everything you said in mind.  I was very careful to mention and refer to the limitations of the perspective that I was presenting.  And I tell you with absolute certainty that I was not assuming that my perspective was some sort of absolute truth, not at all.  If that's what you got from it, you misinterpreted.  

Edited December 18, 2020 by Heart of Space

[electroBeam]

Yeah I was trying to communicate a vision for an entirely different way of contextualizing a message. Where your perspective, views, attitudes, objections and observations are expressed with an agenda of showcasing the beauty of the universe's intelligence, diversity and wisdom, rather than as pitfalls or challenges that supposedly "others" are doing on the path. Much more like a painting rather than pure criticism.

Such a new framing looks at the world more from the point of view that there are no individual "others" climbing up the path, making mistakes and pitfalls, but rather the universe as a whole is a integrated, intertwined and orchestrated play of different dynamics coming seasonally in and out of flow with a cumulative effect of growth of everyone as an entire organism, and such pitfalls are just new, and necessary dynamics of consciousness that makes the growth as a whole possible in the first place.

Such framing I don't see happen on this forum much, if at all. And I see such a framing as being really really valuable for such topics such as the ones you bring up. Because the topics you bring up are much more unique to the individual then say the act of stabbing yourself in the eye.

For example, people on the path have such wildly different reactions to psychedelics, that making a general statement for how users aren't using psychedelics properly, certainly has its place, but there's also the element that whether people are actually misusing psychedelics, or whether they are getting deluded by them, is not as clear cut as it seems. Even if they are getting deluded, they might be worse off without them, you don't really know, and then theres the fact that such delusions might not actually be delusions, such people might actually need aliens to advance on the path, its ridiculously diverse.

Such diversity is at a similar scale for your other points.

So for such complicated topics like these ones, your message might actually come through more effectively if its framed in a way where what you're offering is a showcase and an invitation of exploring a particular perspective of consciousness, and you highlight especially the beauty, wisdom and intelligence of the perspective, without adding in assumptions about the pitfalls of those "others", or rather an assumptions of what those others should be doing, or what they should be aiming for, because in a sense each person really does have their own unique path, even though giving others clear directions on what they should or should not be doing is cool sometimes.

For a concrete example:

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

@TrippyMindSubstance  I think we share a lot of feelings about psychedelics, you really hit the nail on the head for me. (A) Still I think a lot of people who use psychedelics as a spiritual tool need to hear things like what you just said dearly. (B) A lot of people get lost in delusion using psychedelics.  I will say though, if Leo says the his use of psychedelics works for him I will take his word on it.  But I probably do differ in my feelings on psychedelics from Leo to some degree for sure. 

(B) could be reframed as: "I want to take you, if you're willing, on a tour of a newly emerging perspective about the properties of psychedelics. In this perspective, such tools radically break the mind's ability to process stimuli in ways that are far more chaotic and extreme, which destabilizes the mind's ability to make sense of such breakdown of stimuli and cause it to try and rush immature, unbaked, rushed reconstructions of interpretations of such breakdowns that lead to a destabilization and misleading of direction on the spiritual path. In this perspective, such minds were unprepared for what just occurred, and now have to deal with the added turmoil of correcting such broken reconstructions".

That way you're not assuming stuff, but just introducing the insight in its pure form, which was your insight originally anyway because "others" don't exist.

Anyway I didn't post this here to convince you of anything, the original intent was to clear up my previous message, because I didn't feel right about how my original message was misinterpreted. I didn't actually think you were being unfair or biased, I was just trying to communicate the above.

[Heart of Space]

@electroBeam  From what I can see you are creating a whole lot of narrative around my motivations for writing certain things or using certain words.  You don't know what my assumptions are.  You are falsely attributing and projecting them onto my words.   As when you you falsely thought I was assuming some sort of universal truth in my perspective from the start of this thread.  You can't just make things up about what I'm thinking when I post and then criticize that. 

The understanding of the subjectivity is very clearly implicit, so why dwell and lecture me on something that's already understood by most if not everyone who I've already conversed with?  You're only stating the obvious.  Again, if a person's perspective is that enlightenment is achieved by stabbing their eye with a knife would you give the same response to someone trying to tell that person they were wrong?  Probably not, right?  And yes, obviously, that example is a bit on the nose.  But it makes a valid point.  You could easily make the same example with a less ridiculous perspective.  Point being that while it's clear that perspectives are subjective we as humans still find a purpose for debating these idea's.  

My post delivery is fine, I didn't ask for your advice on that.  If you want to make the same thread, but deliver the same idea's in your way be my guest.  I take no issue with that.  I will write my way as I see fit.   

[TrippyMindSubstance]

9 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

I will say though, if Leo says the his use of psychedelics works for him I will take his word on it.  But I probably do differ in my feelings on psychedelics from Leo to some degree for sure.  

For sure. I definitely didn't mean to say that approach isn't working for him, because sort of what I think both you and @electroBeam are saying, it's almost pointless to debate whether or not an approach like that is fundamentally "correct".

At this point of my development, I personally see Leo's approach to psychedelics as more of an invitation, sort of like the universe showing me through Leo that "This is an example of what you can do with your life. You can explore your mind in this way through psychedelics, which might come with certain benefits and might come with certain drawbacks. If this appeals to you, awesome. Do it. If not, look at all this other shit you can do. Pick something that works for you". 

And in terms of the other stuff that @electroBeam is saying, I didn't have time to carefully read your post, I sort of quickly skimmed through it so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding something, but based off what I understand you're saying, it would definitely be very interesting to create this new way of communication without assuming there are others, seeing everything as finite perspectives etc. I think would be cool to maybe create a separate thread where we try to discuss ideas in that context, but I think it's kind of too late to try and bring that into this thread where the context of "there is you, and me, and other spiritual seekers that might benefit from hearing this kind of advice" has already been assumed. I think it makes more sense to just stick with the one that has been chosen at the beginning of the thread to avoid confusion, but I 100% see the value in trying to communicate in the way that you mentioned. 

 

[Heart of Space]

2 hours ago, TrippyMindSubstance said:

For sure. I definitely didn't mean to say that approach isn't working for him, because sort of what I think both you and @electroBeam are saying, it's almost pointless to debate whether or not an approach like that is fundamentally "correct".

At this point of my development, I personally see Leo's approach to psychedelics as more of an invitation, sort of like the universe showing me through Leo that "This is an example of what you can do with your life. You can explore your mind in this way through psychedelics, which might come with certain benefits and might come with certain drawbacks. If this appeals to you, awesome. Do it. If not, look at all this other shit you can do. Pick something that works for you". 

I see, that's a really healthy way to look at it.  

2 hours ago, TrippyMindSubstance said:

And in terms of the other stuff that @electroBeam is saying, I didn't have time to carefully read your post, I sort of quickly skimmed through it so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding something, but based off what I understand you're saying, it would definitely be very interesting to create this new way of communication without assuming there are others, seeing everything as finite perspectives etc. I think would be cool to maybe create a separate thread where we try to discuss ideas in that context, but I think it's kind of too late to try and bring that into this thread where the context of "there is you, and me, and other spiritual seekers that might benefit from hearing this kind of advice" has already been assumed. I think it makes more sense to just stick with the one that has been chosen at the beginning of the thread to avoid confusion, but I 100% see the value in trying to communicate in the way that you mentioned. 

Another point I would like to make is that language is simply a tool.  Language can but does not necessarily carry with us our ideology, or underlying beliefs and assumptions.  There's no point in being critical about my language use unless the tool of language is being used poorly and the idea's are not being properly understood.  As far as I've seen, people have understood me very clearly, so this is not the case.  

As far as language that assumes an "other."  I think it's ridiculous to police ourselves to such a degree that we avoid any reference to "individual other."  I think you are limiting yourself to a great degree.  I mean if you want to get down to it, simply responding and writing responses on a forum equally assumes that there is an "individual other" as much as any other post even if you are careful about how you write.  That being said, I am not making that criticism of anyone, I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of even bringing up that criticism in the first place when you are on a forum interacting.  

I'm interested in having this conversation about language and the implicit assumptions held within the normal way we communicate.  However, I think this is definitely not what I created this thread for, so it is off topic.  If someone wanted to make that thread topic, I'll be happy to continue the discussion there.  

[electroBeam]

@Heart of Space i wasnt lecturing you dude, i was expressing an idea.

I think any 3rd person observer can see what i was pointing at, especially the part that it was just a vision/idea i had. You've just taken it too personally. 

Actually what im alluding to is a tier 2(SD) way of understanding and communication rather than tier 1. You just werent open to that possibility. I guess this forum just isn't ready for it.

[Heart of Space]

@electroBeamNot at all, man.  Nothing personal at all.  I simply did not resonate with the idea's you expressed and that's fine.  I also felt it was off topic as well.  

[Heart of Space]

As a tier 2 turquoise super ultra omega enlightened being I don't understand why anyone wouldn't resonate with what I said.   Oh well, I guess I'll have to levitate over to another thread.  

[electroBeam]

9 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

As a tier 2 turquoise super ultra omega enlightened being I don't understand why anyone wouldn't resonate with what I said.   Oh well, I guess I'll have to levitate over to another thread.  

Just keep in mind that this is Tier 1's mantra.

Sure i can see how that post was off topic. I didnt initially see it that way because i thought the new way of thinking would be very powerful for your specific topics. But now that im more aware of how you feel about things, ill refrain from such discussions in the future.

[Heart of Space]

Just now, electroBeam said:

Just keep in mind that this is Tier 1's mantra.

Sure i can see how that post was off topic. I didnt initially see it that way because i thought the new way of thinking would be very powerful for your specific topics. But now that im more aware of how you feel about things, ill refrain from such discussions in the future.

Lol, I was more poking fun at your last post.  It was a pretty obvious joke I thought.  "super ultra omega enlightened" didn't give it away?

[electroBeam]

5 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Lol, I was more poking fun at your last post.  It was a pretty obvious joke I thought.  "super ultra omega enlightened" didn't give it away?

Thats why i didnt mention tier 1 or 2 in the original post, but after you took what i said as a lecture rather than just a new way of doing things, you forced me to you outline it specifically you bugger  saw everything coming lol.

[Heart of Space]

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Thats why i didnt mention tier 1 or 2 in the original post, but after you took what i said as a lecture rather than just a new way of doing things, you forced me to you outline it specifically you bugger  saw everything coming lol.

You get hung up on details that don't matter.  That's been the story of our interaction.  That and attributing false narrative to me.  Trust me, I have no issue understanding what would be considered "Tier 2."   You're a bit high on your own farts and up your own ass it seems.  That's my personal reading of you, could be wrong though, unlike you I won't assume that I know what you're thinking.  

Edited December 18, 2020 by Heart of Space