A Critical Perspective on the Spirituality Practiced Here

[Heart of Space]

This post is critical of a lot of the content in this forum section.  That being said I have a deep respect for all of you that have done serious work in this most important realm of human development.  I also think that the fact that there is an open minded space to talk about this sort of stuff with no judgement is extremely important and I commend all of you that make this conversation even possible.  

Here are a few very general critiques of the spirituality portrayed by this forum;

i)  Use of convoluted language and the overindulgence in spiritual narrative and concepts

What is spirituality ultimately?  A search for the end of suffering, for ultimate happiness, for truth?  Why obscure what is mostly something very simple in all sorts of esoteric idea's and concepts?  Aren't all or most of us just searching to quiet the ego-mind and find peace?  Why do we have to talk about enlightenment as if we're all playing some sort of spiritual Dragon Ball Z with endless levels of higher attainment?  All of that is a pointless obfuscation of the simplistic idea of quieting the ego-mind to live in peaceful presence.  The greatest irony of really getting trapped in this is that you can actually become more deluded than the average person not less.  Now don't get me wrong, it's a simple idea, but the journey to get there can be a long and arduous process.  I don't mean to diminish that reality at all.  I only mean to diminish the mental concept that conceives spirituality as some sort of game where we're all increasing our spiritual power level to get to the next awakening.  

ii)  An overreliance of psychedelics and a lack of recognition of their ability to delude you into oblivion

Use of psychedelics in certain contexts can result in the long run and added level of mental narrative and delusion.  If someone preaches Christianity to you while you're tripping you might very well become a Christian, this is a real example that I've seen happen.  In a similar vein you can go into a trip with all sorts of spiritual concepts and idea's you can color the narrative of your trip with those idea's, which then reinforces them as narrative and delusion in your sober life.  Whether that be masahmadhi, Jana states, telepathy, or any of the other countless spiritual narratives out there.  And let me tell you, it is very possible to have a completely convincing experience of telepathy, for example, but ultimately it just be a complete psychological illusion created in the experience.  The level to which you can create illusion and narrative while using psychedelics is extremely vast, far more than most people here recognize. 

For example, if the narrative of self is an illusion, the narrative of a self that has lived countless past lives and has telepathy is an even greater illusion.  Is it not?  

This being said, I believe that psychedelics do have their place in this work.  But they are absolutely not a replacement for structuring your existence so that you can live a life of presence.  Shouldn't you still practice as if psychedelics do not exist?  

iii)  Lack of simplistic pragmatism, which would be the most effective, useful, and compatible form of spirituality for modern society

What happened to the chop wood carry water approach?  Not that all of you don't have some of that in your approach, but I never see any posts where people talk about how they spent 6 months meditating and doing simple honest hard ass work.  Mostly I see people talking about sticking DMT up their anus and blasting off, which has its place I suppose.  I guess the day to day grind and discipline just isn't as exciting?  I think a lot of people would be amazed at the type of person they would become if they could leave their modern comfortable lives, meditate all day every day for part of a year and live in extreme discipline.  Or hell, if you don't want to go that far just live a minimalist life style, build relationships based on love, meditate 3 hours daily, and do ice baths for discipline as an example (maybe throw in a psychedelic a couple of times a year if that floats your boat).

I guess you could say I'm a spiritual minimalist because I think that moving in the direction of simplicity is moving in the direction of presence and peace.  

Ultimately this is just a singular perspective and I'm certainly not floating above everyone talking down to you from my perch lol.  I just thought it was worth sharing and perhaps some interesting conversation could come of it.  Feel free to show me where my perspective could be broadened.  I welcome counter-perspectives and I hope I get some good ones to contemplate.  

 

[Preety_India]

I'll let you know the culprit - Spiritual Ego. 

You can't help if a group of people decided to practice spirituality and they could never shed their spiritual Egos, then this is the result you get. You are essentially watching how spirituality gets deluded and corrupted and hijacked by many spiritual Egos engaged in spiritual mastery chimpery game. This is what you get. 

Move this topic to Meditation Consciousness sub section. 

(I'll bookmark this post if you don't mind) 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Preety_India

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

What is spirituality ultimately?  A search for the end of suffering, for ultimate happiness, for truth?  Why obscure what is mostly something very simple

Well as it turns out these things are not so simple. How many people(even so called spiritual people) do you know actually are conscious of the Truth or have peace and no suffering in their life? 

 Just one of these issues is worth hours of discussion.

One can say that everlasting peace and freedom from suffering is not even possible or realistic as an objective. What is suffering really? Is it bad? Should we avoid it at all Costs? How are you going to learn and grow without suffering?  How are you going to survive if fear of suffering didn't prevent you from avoiding pain?  As It turns out suffering is as important as happiness in your life. You see without suffering you would become soft and your whole life will collapse. Because you are too much of a soft ass to endure discipline (I'm not addressing you personally I'm talking in general lol)

You see it's not so simple. Here where contemplation and using the mind takes place. Sorry to break it to to you but reality is infinitely complex and tricky. Nothing is obvious and nothing is simple. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Someone here

[Heart of Space]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well as it turns out these things are not so simple. How many people(even so called spiritual people) do you know actually are conscious of the Truth or have peace and no suffering in their life? 

 Just one of these issues is worth hours of discussion.

One can say that everlasting peace and freedom from suffering is not even possible or realistic as an objective. What is suffering really? Is it bad? Should we avoid it at all Costs? How are you going to learn and grow without suffering?  How are you going to survive if fear of suffering didn't prevent you from avoiding pain?  As It turns out suffering is as important as happiness in your life. You see without suffering you would become soft and your whole life will collapse. Because you are too much of a soft ass to endure discipline (I'm not addressing you personally I'm talking in general lol)

You see it's not so simple. Here where contemplation and using the mind takes place. Sorry to break it to to you but reality is infinitely complex and tricky. Nothing is obvious and nothing is simple. 

All reasonable questions and discussion.  My criticism is more targeted to people who use esoteric spiritual and religious concepts and language to talk about it.  You don't have to look far for an example of someone obfuscating spiritual discussion in the manner in which I'm talking about.  I guess maybe simplicity versus complexity is not the best way of wording it.  More that there is an obfuscation of the conversation with superfluous language and concepts which in my opinion only work to delude and pointlessly make the conversation more complex than it needs to be.  

Asking questions like "what is suffering?"  is good because it is simple and to the point.  there's no ideology baked into it, it's an honest and concise introspection on reality.  

[Preety_India]

@Heart of Space When spirituality is obfuscated beyond measure, even spirituality turns into ideology! 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

  My criticism is more targeted to people who use esoteric spiritual and religious concepts and language to talk about it. 

Well that's what this subforum is for. Don't know what else do you expect. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Someone here

[Heart of Space]

@Preety_IndiaFalse beliefs and ideology can certainly be a side effect!  

@dflores321  No doubt, there's good and bad postings here.  Part of my purpose for posting this is that I wanted to see how people would react to reading this particular perspective.  I figured it would provoke some interesting responses.  And I agree it is important to be honest with yourself and your thoughts.

@Someone here  Well in that case, let me tell you that the only way to salvation is through our lord Jesus Christ.  Come on Sunday we have our special Kool-Aid ceremony where we meet God after.  

[Adodd]

5 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

ii)  An overreliance of psychedelics and a lack of recognition of their ability to delude you into oblivion

Use of psychedelics in certain contexts can result in the long run and added level of mental narrative and delusion.  If someone preaches Christianity to you while you're tripping you might very well become a Christian, this is a real example that I've seen happen.  In a similar vein you can go into a trip with all sorts of spiritual concepts and idea's you can color the narrative of your trip with those idea's, which then reinforces them as narrative and delusion in your sober life. 

You should make a seperate post about how to properly use psychedelics and how to avoid the potential traps. Surely a lot of people on this forum cpuld benefit from that. Maybe myself included.

[Heart of Space]

@Adodd  Perhaps I could.  I don't really view myself as someone who is mature enough to teach others like that quite yet.

You could always PM me, or maybe I'll make a topic one day about that who knows.  Thanks for the suggestion.  

Edited December 13, 2020 by Heart of Space

[Nahm]

@Heart of Space ??

For anyone interested...a list of meditations. 

[mandyjw]

Being too careful to always choose the direct path can indicate a belief in distance. The direct path is really one of joy and love and isn't a path at all. 

I think that minimalism is the beginning of a realization, or a purification of what it is we truly want. Too often when we strive to be minimalists we focus more on the unnecessary stuff we don't want or are avoiding, rather than the clarity and freedom that we really DO want. 

We may unfeelingly throw out everything without taking the time to sort through it, and determine what it is that we really want. If you're familiar with Marie Kondo, her method for "minimalism" is what I'd suggest for spirituality. Really really feel into the practices, the narratives, the concepts, the traditions and make your practice completely your own. 

There's a place for a dashboard Jesus sometimes if it makes you smile. I think if you look at it like stopping to smell the roses, rather than believing that the holy rose water will save you, you'll be just fine. 

[Heart of Space]

Appreciate you @Nahm

 

@mandyjw  I liked your post and I feel it very thoughtfully makes a good point in regards to a potential trap in minimalism.  

Still, I can't help but feel some level of spiritual minimalism is extremely beneficial.  

I think there is a huge benefit to being pragmatic and minimalist in our language when talking about spirituality.  That is to only say what is necessary and to not tack on unnecessary concepts or ideology when it serves little to no purpose.  An exception here for poetry and artistry in general, because poetic language does have its own purpose.  

And in terms of your every day life keeping things that only serve a real purpose.  

My main issue is that the fundamental aspects of spiritual practice are muddied by a lot of the extra layers of decoration.  If something doesn't make a real substantive change in your life why do it?  

Do you understand what I mean?  I think a lot of people get caught in a hamster wheel because they get caught up in complexity of narrative and minutia that doesn’t matter.

 

[Someone here]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:09 AM, Heart of Space said:

Well in that case, let me tell you that the only way to salvation is through our lord Jesus Christ.  Come on Sunday we have our special Kool-Aid ceremony where we meet God after.  

That's not esoteric religious language. The esoteric Christian will say that you are the way. The christ I am the way which means you are the way. What you said is the stage blue literal interpretation of the bible. Which is not what people discuss here. 

[Heart of Space]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

That's not esoteric religious language. The esoteric Christian will say that you are the way. The christ I am the way which means you are the way. What you said is the stage blue literal interpretation of the bible. Which is not what people discuss here. 

Wooosh

So, what you're saying is that it's ok to be critical of particular ways of practicing spirituality?  

Edited December 16, 2020 by Heart of Space

[Someone here]

16 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Wooosh

So, what you're saying is that it's ok to be critical of particular ways of practicing spirituality?  

I'm not here to tell you what's OK and what's not. Lol 

I'm saying you are going to a bar and wondering why there so much sluts there...well that's what a bar is.  This subforum is for discussing esoteric religion (mysticism) spirituality metaphysics etc.  Also new age stuff and Jesus stuff. Read it up there in the description.  I know most people think this stuff is just mental jerkoff. But for other people it's even better than actual jerkoff. So get used to it. 

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Someone here said:

I'm not here to tell you what's OK and what's not. Lol 

I'm saying you are going to a bar and wondering why there so much sluts there...well that's what a bar is.  This subforum is for discussing esoteric religion (mysticism) spirituality metaphysics etc.  Also new age stuff and Jesus stuff. Read it up there in the description.  I know most people think this stuff is just mental jerkoff. But for other people it's even better than actual jerkoff. So get used to it. 

So, my critique relating to those topics aren't for this subsection?  

Do you tell the guy critiquing socialism in the socialism forum subsection "this is the socialism subsection I don't know what you expect?"  

I'm not telling people not not post about things.  I'm not telling people to do anything.  I'm simply sharing a perspective on the topics discussed.  

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

So, my critique relating to those topics aren't for this subsection?  

Do you tell the guy critiquing socialism in the socialism forum subsection "this is the socialism subsection I don't know what you expect?"  

I'm not telling people not not post about things.  I'm not telling people to do anything.  I'm simply sharing a perspective on the topics discussed.  

Yes ofcourse your post belongs here. That's why mods didn't remove it. And here you are getting your answer from me. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Someone here

[SpiritualAwakening]

On 12/13/2020 at 0:47 AM, Heart of Space said:

What is spirituality ultimately?  A search for the end of suffering, for ultimate happiness, for truth?  Why obscure what is mostly something very simple in all sorts of esoteric idea's and concepts?  Aren't all or most of us just searching to quiet the ego-mind and find peace?

This whole journey is about an objective and honest (to one self) inquiry/contemplation into what the Absolute Truth is of reality. To discover what the nature of reality is by observing one's relationship to oneself and one's relationship with another. I didn't even know what enlightenment or the essence of spirituality was when I discovered Absolute Truth. So all these ideas about enlightenment, spirituality, higher self, higher consciousness can all be dropped because they're distracting you from discovering the Absolute. One really needs to watch out for illusions and not give ANY AUTHORITY AWAY WHATSOEVER. This is so fucking important. because once you do that, you're gone. Finished.

On 12/13/2020 at 0:47 AM, Heart of Space said:

And let me tell you, it is very possible to have a completely convincing experience of telepathy, for example, but ultimately it just be a complete psychological illusion created in the experience.  The level to which you can create illusion and narrative while using psychedelics is extremely vast, far more than most people here recognize. 

What someone would recognize as telepathy all depends on the degree of telepathy one is experiencing. One could experience saying the same thing as another person at the same time and call that telepathy. Of course it is, but to a certain degree. 6 months after discovering Absolute Truth I experienced telepathy together with my wife on a whole new "level",

Now, when I say telepathy, i'm not talking about 2 people thinking the same and saying that same thing at the same time as referred to before. Because that's pretty normal in my opinion. But I am talking about  person 'A' THINKING something inside his/her mind and person 'B' reacting to that exact thing verbally. which was a scary experience. Some enlightened beings have informed me about the possible (in most occasions) trauma processing that happens after having that one God experience. Well we can say this happened. Me and my wife are experimenting with Nitrous Oxide to uncover deeper layers of our being and dig deep inside. Whenever we do this we record everything so that we can look back in retrospect.

To go straight to the experience, we were inhaling the nitrous and I could feel that I was hitting something deep, which I always say out loud. The reason for this is because you have to stay SO conscious in the MOMENT to observe what is happening, that if thoughts get involved it all slips away. It's like being on the border of knowing and not knowing, it's so intense when the downloads hit you that it's like a mental orgasm.

 

Moments before entering that deep state with nitrous I formed some thoughts in my head and my wife started REPLYING to what I was playing in my mind, I was shook and I said what did you say ? She couldn't remember what she said. again one round later I consciously played a story inside my mind to look if it would happen again, and she AGAIN replied laughing and mumbling, she noticed it too and replied (My name) WTF... WTF WTF WTF (getting goosebumps as I'm typing) also after a few rounds with our sleeping mask on (We use a sleeping mask to block all external happenings) in the middle of the round we started mimicking each other's movements symmetrically, WITHOUT THE INTENTION OF WANTING TO DO THAT! We again we're shocked by what happened. We didn't think of something, we didn't see anything yet we were doing the EXACT same things, neck movements, hands gestures, taking sleeping mask off at the same time and reacting the same way.

 

After a few rounds I could FEEL that there was SOMEONE with me INSIDE my mind. For example if you use your mind right now to form some sort of story in your mind you can feel that you're the only presence/awareness that's there. But now it was as if there were 2 'awarenessess' inside my mind. I quickly took off my sleeping mask, looked at my wife and asked her: What are you doing ? She replied What ? What did I do ? I replied never mind, lets continue. the next round I could feel someone was with me there again but this time I was 100% sure it was my wife inside my head. I quickly took off my sleeping mask again and told her, STOP! You know what you're doing, STOP it! ( I could sense it was leading up to something big, as if that presence wanted to take something deep and personal and BRING it to my conscious mind). Again she did not know what I was talking about, so we continued. Then the fourth-fifth round we go in again and AGAIN I feel her inside my head, but this time it was not just her being inside my head, a trauma that took place when I was 12 years old (sexual abuse) was HERE, it came up from my subconscious mind ( I could literally sense it coming from DOWN to UP and arise to my conscious mind. It was so intense that I could sense all emotions that I felt when I experienced the abuse (Keep in mind, that after meeting Source and waking up all my internal blockages were fixed, who I thought I was never existed, I was only a thought form inside my mind, therefore my past also did not exist. Everything was gone and I was reborn again so I didn't have any problems with anything any longer. So for the subconscious mind to have this still inside, means traumas are entangled in your subconscious in such a deep way, it's not even possible to imagine. 

All energy and emotions from that experience were HERE, NOW in my living room surrounding me. I yelled NO NO  GO AWAY and hit my fist on the table. That's when my wife thought I was going berserk. She held me tight and as SOON as she held me she pushed herself away, looked at her hands and said: (my name)... What the hell was that.. ? I said I think you've just experienced all my emotions from the sexual abuse. She started looking at her hands again and said: (my name) these are not my hands, what's happening.. This is not me. She ran to the mirror and started crying. She said (my name) this isn't my body It's not even me crying right now.. I feel like I'm 12 years old (laying on the floor curved as a child). We didn't know what to do at first, I knew I couldn't call an ambulance because they would throw her in a mental hospital. So I decided to call my mother for some "spiritual advice" . She didn't pick up so I called my grandfather (some might call him a shaman), he picked up and I instantly said grandpa, you have to come NOW some spiritual stuff happened and we don't know what to do. He didn't know where I lived exactly because he never leaves the house so I said we would come over to his place. While going there I had to keep my wife in the NOW or else she would dwell off inside her mind and get all sorts of negative thoughts, she said when she looked inside my eyes she saw a lot of darkness. When we arrived at my grandfather's house she also saw a lot of darkness in his eyes. I instantly wanted to explain the situation but my grandfather cut me off and said let her sit down first, he did some small ritual which involved a lot of gag reflexes as if he was taking something out of my wife and gagging it out. He was done and said it's gone sweetheart. she immediately felt like herself again, and I ask my grandfather WHAT WAS THAT ? He said those were emotions that were too powerful for her to handle. She unconsciously because of your connection to each other and the love wanted to save you, but she isn't ready for that kind of work just yet. (SO WITHOUT ME EXPLAINING WHAT HAPPENED THE MAN JUST EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT I CONSCIOUSLY SAW HAPPENING WHEN IT HAPPENED IN THE MOMENT) He started explaining my wife that if she wants to do this kind of work she needs to become stronger, mentally etc, It was beautiful but scary.. YES PEOPLE THIS WORK IS NOT SOME JOKE, IT CAN BE DANGEROUS!

With all that said. This telepathy was aimed at processing my trauma and because of our connection together she healed me telepathically through love.

On 12/13/2020 at 0:47 AM, Heart of Space said:

This being said, I believe that psychedelics do have their place in this work.  But they are absolutely not a replacement for structuring your existence so that you can live a life of presence.  Shouldn't you still practice as if psychedelics do not exist?  

 

When my journey started I never used psychedelics as a means or with the intention to find the Absolute Truth. It was just me and my mind. Also never meditated before either, so NO we don't need psychedelics or endless hours of meditating. We do however need to get in such a deep state that we lose all identifications. That can NOT happen when the eyes are open or you (in the moment) think you are your name or your body. So I do encourage meditation every now and then when a lot of inquiry and some realizations (INSIDE THE MIND) has took place. All absolute realizations take place outside the mind and therefore outside of time and space.

Edited December 16, 2020 by SpiritualAwakening

[Heart of Space]

5 hours ago, SpiritualAwakening said:

This whole journey is about an objective and honest (to one self) inquiry/contemplation into what the Absolute Truth is of reality. To discover what the nature of reality is by observing one's relationship to oneself and one's relationship with another. I didn't even know what enlightenment or the essence of spirituality was when I discovered Absolute Truth. So all these ideas about enlightenment, spirituality, higher self, higher consciousness can all be dropped because they're distracting you from discovering the Absolute. One really needs to watch out for illusions and not give ANY AUTHORITY AWAY WHATSOEVER. This is so fucking important. because once you do that, you're gone. Finished.

Well shit, I mean your description of your spirituality is something I think I can really get behind.  Objectivity and honesty are extremely important in the fundamental point being made behind this thread.  

And then also you think it's beneficial to drop alternative concepts about spirituality and that not all of them are necessary.  That's essentially what I'm advocating, although I do think that some of the words and phrases you listed could have pragmatic use.  So, hopefully I'm not coming across as a language Nazi, or someone that is being too nit picky.  I really do have a purpose behind what I'm saying and believe my perspective could be beneficial to some people.    

When I talk about concepts that could be discarded I more refer to concepts that sort of divorce themselves from fundamental present reality.  An example would be someone saying that there are many levels and layers to awakening and sort of creating a mythological narrative around those awakenings.  It almost turns into a sort of new age religion for example when you start talking about how a particularly deep level awakening can end the cycle of reincarnation for example.  Something like that is not truth, or presence, it is simply a narrative that your mind made up.  There is a ton of ideology mixed into people's spirituality on this forum.  It just tends to not be as dogmatic, or literalist as say a fundamentalist Christian.  

My question is why have any ideology?  Or if it's too hard to avoid some level of ideology in regards to your spirituality shouldn't you try to break it down to it's basic and most simple parts?  Why do we have to talk about narrative such as spirits, telepathy, past lives, reincarnation, Gods, demons, and play spiritual dragon ball Z with endless levels of awakening and enlightenment?  

You say you discovered truth, so from that perspective, how do you feel about what I say?  

5 hours ago, SpiritualAwakening said:

*telepathy experience*

I wouldn't question your experience of telepathy.  I would only ask what is its significance and how does this experience relate to your spirituality?  I've had experiences like the one you describe.  I don't know your experience, so I don't want to seem like I think that I understand it better than you do, because I absolutely do not.  However, I think with drugs and even in sober reality, there is a vast ability for people to ascribe narrative and significance to reality that is simply falsehood.  I think people underestimate how much they tend to mythologize their own experiences, spiritual people are some of the worst offenders of this.  

Edited December 16, 2020 by Heart of Space

[mandyjw]

14 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

Appreciate you @Nahm

 

@mandyjw  I liked your post and I feel it very thoughtfully makes a good point in regards to a potential trap in minimalism.  

Still, I can't help but feel some level of spiritual minimalism is extremely beneficial.  

I think there is a huge benefit to being pragmatic and minimalist in our language when talking about spirituality.  That is to only say what is necessary and to not tack on unnecessary concepts or ideology when it serves little to no purpose.  An exception here for poetry and artistry in general, because poetic language does have its own purpose.  

And in terms of your every day life keeping things that only serve a real purpose.  

My main issue is that the fundamental aspects of spiritual practice are muddied by a lot of the extra layers of decoration.  If something doesn't make a real substantive change in your life why do it?  

Do you understand what I mean?  I think a lot of people get caught in a hamster wheel because they get caught up in complexity of narrative and minutia that doesn’t matter.

 

Yes, I do understand and I also think that you make an important point. There's a balance, and we don't know what balance is unless we experience or observe an unbalance. I've seen and also lived examples of both. I think certain practices, archetypes, (in my opinion deities are archetypes) systems, symbolism, stories and traditions can be incredibly helpful tools, but a tool is neutral and can be used properly or misused. 

There was a time when I was so dogmatic about minimalism and being practical that I cut off a lot of the joy inherent in life and when I let it back in a got a bit too crazy trying to own it rather than letting it flow. I think we can only know by feeling for ourselves when we are trying to control too much or when we are indulging too much.