Adeptus Psychonautica's direct response to Leo Gura

[Zak]

@AdeptusPsychonautica

I have been watching Leo's work since 2016, and to be fairly honest he has helped me a lot over the course of these 4 to 5 years. He has helped me In almost all domains of my life. His early videos are gold — I must say. But what he recently got into is something really delusional and unaccepted, maybe it is good for some people [Kudos], but speaking of myself... I certainly won't buy it. No matter what. Call me whatever.

I never accepted his teaching 100 percent, but looking back, It was kinda sucking me into his dogma and ideology. It just did not make sense to me. I was very vulnerable and gullible back then. I completely gave up on my social life, left my family and friends. I literally was at the darkest phase of my life. I had no other option but to find some meaning in my life. This is when I found out about Leo and all of a sudden found something that just made me feel good. But at the same time, his teaching worked my mind and made me more of an isolated kid who thought he was God but in reality, a piece of shit. 

I personally thank you @AdeptusPsychonautica for making me more conscious of the fact that I am not God. I am human. I perhaps will still be watching his work every now and then but will be more skeptical and critical of what he teaches.

I am deciding to finally no longer be a member of this forum, although the forum members here and Leo somehow helped me. Thanks. I will still choose to get out of this package.

Thanks to all of you. Bye.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Zak

[Chi_]

@AdeptusPsychonautica Idk if you would even reply to this but do you not believe that someone can get "Enlightened" (with or without Psychedelics). ??

 

PS:- He DM'ed me in order to not de-rail this thread

Edited December 11, 2020 by Chi_

[thibault]

3 hours ago, AdeptusPsychonautica said:

1. My criticism of Leo's attitude to Connor was a factor in Leo re-examining his position - so the criticism was valid
2. Leo has conceded on the example I stated about "instantaneously solving all problems, curing all diseases etc", that he was in fact exaggerating and speaking out of turn - so the criticism was valid
3. The framing of my criticism as "nuuuh, Leo never said ONLY he is God" is a strawman - a complete fiction you invented.

Hey there, in almost every other aspect of society I would get behind you on such arguments. However, being an experienced psychonaut yourself, I don't understand how you can expect Leo to take this into consideration and adapt his teachings from them. I watched your video saying Leo had gone off the deep end and to be honest I definitely felt like that too. Some of his content is very close to the edge for YouTube. However what I don't understand is that when pressed, Leo has gone into all the nuance you need to make it clear that he is sufficiently grounded. You then use this "the criticism was valid" phrase to reduce the complexity of the situation to a simple black and white distinction. "Was I right or was I wrong ?". I'm open to hearing any criticism of Leo but here you just come across as trying to push your perspective on others. Take a hit of DMT and I'm sure you and Leo can be best buddies.

[abrakamowse]

@thibault ??????

[Gesundheit]

6 hours ago, AdeptusPsychonautica said:

2. Leo has conceded on the example I stated about "instantaneously solving all problems, curing all diseases etc", that he was in fact exaggerating and speaking out of turn - so the criticism was valid

You still have missed the point, though. Leo did acknowledge the fact that he sometimes exaggerates things, but he also added a nuance here. He does not exaggerate merely in a poetic way. He deeply believes that it's possible to manipulate physical reality with the mind, i.e. perform miracles. So, he acknowledges his beliefs as beliefs, but he still chooses to believe in the likelihood of miracles because of the anecdotal evidence that he claims exists. I don't have a position here, just wanted to clarify something for you. It was nice having you here, and I wish you all the best.

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, Zak said:

I personally thank you @AdeptusPsychonautica for making me more conscious of the fact that I am not God. I am human. I perhaps will still be watching his work every now and then but will be more skeptical and critical of what he teaches.

This makes me reconsider the value of honest criticism. It's a fine line to walk, between speaking your own truth, and judging someone else for being wrong. As long as the feedback is sincere, it can be constructive. Maybe people like Zak would benefit from more open discussion like this.

@AdeptusPsychonautica I have never followed Leo's teachings, and have only seen 3 of his videos. Still, I'm grateful for the forum he has provided, and I have learned from the people here. I get the cult concern, but not all of us are drinking the Kool-Aid 

[Dazgwny]

Time to lock this shit up now. Ludicrous debate. I’m really hoping that I don’t sit down on a Sunday to a video of what I hope are some good teachings and something to contemplate, or something of good practical work, to end end up seeing this issue addressed. The minute I hear of this situation is the minute I press stop on the video. This nonsense is not what it’s all about. This seriously is a distraction. I’m not here to read about adeptus or whatever his name is. I’d never heard of this guy until you lot posted about him. Now I’m seeing this shite distract myself from the genuine teachings. Because everytime I load up the forum the most recent posts generally involve this shit. I just want to investigate reality. Leo is useful for this. This adeptus guy isn’t. He just wants to argue, ego orientated and it’s wasting my time. Lock the thread and be done with it??

[FredFred]

@Dazgwny You're really triggered

Edited December 11, 2020 by FredFred

[andyjohnsonman]

1 hour ago, Dazgwny said:

Time to lock this shit up now. Ludicrous debate. I’m really hoping that I don’t sit down on a Sunday to a video of what I hope are some good teachings and something to contemplate, or something of good practical work, to end end up seeing this issue addressed. The minute I hear of this situation is the minute I press stop on the video. This nonsense is not what it’s all about. This seriously is a distraction. I’m not here to read about adeptus or whatever his name is. I’d never heard of this guy until you lot posted about him. Now I’m seeing this shite distract myself from the genuine teachings. Because everytime I load up the forum the most recent posts generally involve this shit. I just want to investigate reality. Leo is useful for this. This adeptus guy isn’t. He just wants to argue, ego orientated and it’s wasting my time. Lock the thread and be done with it??

Anyone you follow you should read a critique of so you don't fall into confirmation bias. Adeptus raises some good points in his recent video with Martin Ball and if you aren't open to looking at that then you are falling into many traps that Leo himself talks about in his videos. 

[lmfao]

9 hours ago, AdeptusPsychonautica said:

None of you had the spine to address the "exaggeration", none of you could even acknowledge that "yeah maybe he has a point, even if I don't like the way he said it", and even NOW that Leo has done the heavy lifting for you and admitted that there is some validity behind all this, you still struggle with reality. That you wrap this up in a framework of "enlightenment" and "truth-seeking" is insane, and this should answer your question about why Actualized attracts so much negative attention - you bring it on yourselves through your own defensive cult-like behaviour, and lack of critical thinking.

Of course Leo cannot choose his audience, but when I see zealotry such as this then I feel embarrassed on his behalf - is this Actualized? Are you really even following Leo's work, or are you just a fanatical mob rushing to blindly defend any perceived attack against your guru? 

 

In terms of criticism this one is done, the ink has dried on the facts - try and learn from this experience, and move on.

Leo - thank you for taking the time to respond. Regardless of our disagreements it is appreciated.

Brother Adeptus makes some good points. 

Quote

That you wrap this up in a framework of "enlightenment" and "truth-seeking" is insane, and this should answer your question about why Actualized attracts so much negative attention - you bring it on yourselves through your own defensive cult-like behaviour, and lack of critical thinking.

Eh, strong disagree there. 
---
To be honest, it seems as though operating on this forum requires doublethink. On the one hand, you want to remain openminded and honest about your opinions, and everyone conceptually agrees that you need to not believe anything and form your own opinion. On the other hand, Leo locks threads and everyone ridicules you if you deviate from some dogma.

You can't simultaneously ask people to be openminded and not believe anything but then chastise people for deviating from your dogma slightly. 


Someone might try to give some "you're damned if you do, damned if you don't" in regards to policing/moderation, I wouldn't be able agree

Edited December 11, 2020 by lmfao

[andyjohnsonman]

Leo is just giving his experiences and what feels real to him. He says don't believe it unless you verify it for yourself, so don't believe it unless you verify it for yourself! I have learnt a lot from actualized (psychology, epistemology, philosophy etc ). I just take the metaphysical things he has experienced with a grain of salt and do the practices (which I have learnt from here) to look into whether they stand any ground. 

 

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, lmfao said:

---
To be honest, it seems as though operating on this forum requires doublethink. On the one hand, you want to remain openminded and honest about your opinions, and everyone conceptually agrees that you need to not believe anything and form your own opinion. On the other hand, Leo locks threads and everyone ridicules you if you deviate from some dogma.

You can't simultaneously ask people to be openminded and not believe anything but then chastise people for deviating from your dogma slightly. 

With intention and goal, their must be some filtering and a balance between attention and awareness.

If our intention / goal is to integrate psychedelics, Reilki and neuroscience - we would want to be a open to experimenting in all of these areas and being open-minded to people with experience and understanding in each of these areas. 

Yet where we draw the boundaries get tricky, especially when there isn’t clarity of intention and goal. There needs to be a balance of grounded and groundlessness. Flexibility and rigidity. This is where direct experience, maturity, holistic awareness and intuition come into play. 

I would also consider genuineness. A mind genuinely open-minded and exploring to expand is different than a mind contracted within its own narrative and trying to distract / hinder others from exploring and expanding.

Imagine we teach a course on Genetics. Some pone enters very curious about genetics and sometimes raises questions like “But how do we really know that DNA mutations are random? Isn’t epigenetics similar to past lives? Why would scientists call epigenetics ‘science’ and past lives ‘woo woo’?”. This is a mind that is open to exploring and learning. It understands that it has gaps and is missing some things.  A mind with an agenda seeks to distract and hinder is a very different orientation. This mind makes all sorts of assumptions and hinders the exploration. For example, it may assume it already nderstands what the geneticist means by “epigenetics”. With a partial misunderstanding, the person may make incorrect interpretations, become confrontational and cause distraction both to themselves and the group. The geneticist may say “No, you are conflating epigenetics with traditional genetics - there are distinct mechanisms between the two”. Yet the other mind may get defensive as it already assumes it understands and will interest things personally - which motivates all sorts of mental dynamics with narrative control and being right. Generally, the mind is “right” from one perspective, yet it is locked into that perspective and is unaware of the larger field. It would be like becoming hyper focused on something and losing peripheral awareness. The price is losing contextual insights.

[lmfao]

36 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I would also consider genuineness. A mind genuinely open-minded and exploring to expand is different than a mind contracted within its own narrative and trying to distract / hinder others from exploring and expanding.
...
A mind with an agenda seeks to distract and hinder is a very different orientation. This mind makes all sorts of assumptions and hinders the exploration.

That resonates to me. 

36 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet where we draw the boundaries get tricky, especially when there isn’t clarity of intention and goal. There needs to be a balance of grounded and groundlessness. Flexibility and rigidity. This is where direct experience, maturity, holistic awareness and intuition come into play. 

I think moderation is one of those things that can't fully be contained in some list of rules. Hence intuition and moment by moment judgement, correctly guided and not just someone abusing power.  
--
Having seen some discord servers. What strict laws/rules often do is that they prevent some wrong through preventing something that is neutral in of in itself, but that neutral thing can be used for 'wrong purposes' ( but also for some good purpose )

The more highbrow approach is to not ban those things, but use intuition and moment by moment judgement to respond correctly to when something arises. All that to say, yeah, I think it's tricky and I agree with an inclination towards situational judgement rather than some fixed set of rules. letter of the law vs spirit of the law.

Upon operating from intuition and situational judgement as a mod, I'm sure you've seen yourself criticised or attacked for that a bit since people will complain that you have double standards from their POV. Everyone turns into a lawyer when these situations happen, for good and bad. 
--
All that said and etc, I still perceive the core of what I said earlier, a doublethink in myself and plenty others on this forum. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by lmfao

[Moksha]

17 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Generally, the mind is “right” from one perspective, yet it is locked into that perspective and is unaware of the larger field. It would be like becoming hyper focused on something and losing peripheral awareness. The price is losing contextual insights.

It comes down to conscious intent. When our conscious intent is pure, we don't overidentify with any particular perspective, and thus are free to realize the panoramic beauty of all perspectives. When our conscious intent is impure, we overidentify with a fixed perspective, and become bound by it.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Moksha said:

It comes down to conscious intent. When our conscious intent is pure, we don't overidentify with any particular perspective, and thus are free to realize the panoramic beauty of all perspectives. When our conscious intent is impure, we overidentify with a fixed perspective, and become bound by it.

I think that is one key dynamic. With conscious intent there is greater open-ness, curiosity and space for experiencing and observing. Yet that doesn’t necessary mean understanding. If someone describes a phenomena of “x”, it is common for the receiving mind to assume it knows what “x” is, even if it is misinterpretation. Letting go of that view allows appreciation and curiosity of “x” and greatly increases the chance of realizing “x”, yet the intention alone does not guarantee direct experience/knowing/understanding of “x”, Ime and observations. There have been many times that I was super and interested and curious about someone’s perspective / experience, yet didn’t know what tf they were pointing to. For many people, this feeling of ambiguity, groundlessness, uncertainty can be extremely uncomfortable, and they avoid entering that space. Some people have a very strong desire to feel sure about a grounded position. 

[Javfly33]

11 hours ago, Zak said:

@AdeptusPsychonautica

 

I personally thank you @AdeptusPsychonautica for making me more conscious of the fact that I am not God. I am human. I perhaps will still be watching his work every now and then but will be more skeptical and critical of what he teaches.

I am deciding to finally no longer be a member of this forum, although the forum members here and Leo somehow helped me. Thanks. I will still choose to get out of this package.

Thanks to all of you. Bye.

Lol

[Moksha]

47 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

There have been many times that I was super and interested and curious about someone’s perspective / experience, yet didn’t know what tf they were pointing to. For many people, this feeling of ambiguity, groundlessness, uncertainty can be extremely uncomfortable, and they avoid entering that space. Some people have a very strong desire to feel sure about a grounded position. 

Have you read The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts? The need for certainty is what keeps most humans chasing the holy grail, when it was within them the whole time. Embracing uncertainty is the ultimate liberation.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Have you read The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts? The need for certainty is what keeps most humans chasing the holy grail, when it was within them the whole time. Embracing uncertainty is the ultimate liberation.

Funny you should mention that. Last night I listened to some Watts for the first time in months and downloaded his book The Wisdom of Insecurity ? 

[Moksha]

@Forestluv Synchronicity! ⚡

[Roy]

Wow what a tremendous distraction that was! Excuse me while I go back to sitting in a dark room for 4 hours.