Can reality be any other way?

[seeking_brilliance]

@Gesundheit you are loved ?

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Well, non-dualists suggest that all forms are limited/finite even though God the formless is unlimited/infinite. But they get away with that because they say paradox is a feature, not a bug.

You are at a key insight here. The question of how God as the formless, changeless, reality interacts with infinite forms, change, and illusion is why the ancient gurus called it the Mystery. God's ways are higher than our ways, and God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. As humans, we literally cannot conceptualize God. The moment we even name it, we miss it.

So why try? We can bang our hands against the ice Wall forever, or we can fly the dragon to the other side. Damn, I miss that show.

[Mu_]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:29 PM, Gesundheit said:

And if yes, why isn't it?

Other ways may include: immortal beings, aging backwards and back and forth, no negative emotions, all negative emotions, no need for sleeping, no diseases, etc...

The very nature of this question seems to highlight some assumptions you must be having already.  Its like only being aware of a cat living for 15 years and saying can reality be any different, and of course when you get to see more than a cat, you see that things can live beyond 15 years, don't walk on 4 legs, maybe have wings and can fly, perhaps can invent cars that drive.

So again, what are you assuming, and what are you asking?

[Gesundheit]

There is a missing link here.

Why does infinity have to manifest? Isn't manifestation a limitation? Why does infinity/formlessness have to limit itself to manifest/form? Isn't that a self-imposed limitation at best? If yes, why? Why? Why?

The answer better not be because it can. It doesn't make sense.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Moksha]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Why does infinity have to manifest? Isn't manifestation a limitation? Why does infinity/formlessness have to limit itself to manifest/form? Isn't that a self-imposed limitation at best? If yes, why? Why? Why?

I will try to answer, but my advice is to think less about the nature of water, and drink it.

Consciousness is infinite, it is formless, it is motionless, it is timeless, and it is changeless.

The only way for it to experience anything is for it to dream. All creation, all diversification, all forms, all motions, all directions, all senses, all thoughts, all feelings, all perceptions, and all sensations, are illusions that Consciousness dreams, in order to experience.

Why does Consciousness want to experience anything? I suppose because it is better than nothing, which is what Consciousness is.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Moksha

[SamueLSD]

18 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

 Why does infinity/formlessness have to limit itself to manifest/form? 

If it excluded anything, would it be infinity? No. 

By 'limit', you mean, create the illusion of limits 

[SamueLSD]

18 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

There is a missing link here.

Yes. The fact that you are searching for objective proof, and not looking inward.

18 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

It doesn't make sense.

Hehe

[Gesundheit]

11 hours ago, SamueLSD said:

If it excluded anything, would it be infinity? No.

And if it was limited, would it be infinity? No.

You're falling into a double-standard fallacy here.

11 hours ago, SamueLSD said:

By 'limit', you mean, create the illusion of limits 

What does that even mean?

[Gesundheit]

Can reality be any other way?

It can't, until it can and is.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Gesundheit

[VeganAwake]

Reality is constantly changing so it is what it is and also other simultaneously.

[Vittorio]

On 7.12.2020 at 5:23 PM, Gesundheit said:

There is a missing link here.

Why does infinity have to manifest? Isn't manifestation a limitation? Why does infinity/formlessness have to limit itself to manifest/form? Isn't that a self-imposed limitation at best? If yes, why? Why? Why?

The answer better not be because it can. It doesn't make sense.

If you are eternal, boundless, omniscient and infinite intelligent, after a while you get bored to just stay there enjoying yourself.

You want to try out something new. 

But how can you do it, if you are boundless, timeless etc.? 

You have to create finite forms of yourself, create the strong self deception that you believe to be a human with a physical body and with a specific identity. 

As soon as this belief drop, the game ends and you'll know, who you are

Edited December 9, 2020 by Vittorio

[Gesundheit]

13 hours ago, Vittorio said:

If you are eternal, boundless, omniscient and infinite intelligent, after a while you get bored to just stay there enjoying yourself.

You want to try out something new. 

But how can you do it, if you are boundless, timeless etc.? 

You have to create finite forms of yourself, create the strong self deception that you believe to be a human with a physical body and with a specific identity. 

As soon as this belief drop, the game ends and you'll know, who you are

But it doesn't make sense why I would wake myself up during the dream. If the purpose is to experience delusion, then why do I want to know my true identity? It feels more likely that I want a semi state between truth and delusion. Then again, delusion does not really exist. So no explanations make any sense anyway.

[Vittorio]

33 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

But it doesn't make sense why I would wake myself up during the dream. If the purpose is to experience delusion, then why do I want to know my true identity? It feels more likely that I want a semi state between truth and delusion. Then again, delusion does not really exist. So no explanations make any sense anyway.

Why? Because you feel that there is something more to discover that's hidden from your eyes. 

The matrix, for example, is a film based on the fact that this reality is illusory. 

This fakeness feeling and the desire for knowing more are what move you to do this search. 

[Gesundheit]

38 minutes ago, Vittorio said:

Why? Because you feel that there is something more to discover that's hidden from your eyes. 

The matrix, for example, is a film based on the fact that this reality is illusory. 

This fakeness feeling and the desire for knowing more are what move you to do this search. 

Yes, exactly. That's what I have realized recently. It's all absolute truth so there's no point in looking any further. The problem, though, is that I have realized that before, about a year and a half ago, but somehow lost it. So, this time I'm trying to lock it down once and for all. Kinda like taming the ox before returning back home.

[VeganAwake]

Yep ? completeness is already.

But the ego mind does not like to hear it because it puts it out of a job.

No need to listen to it ❤

 

[kbone]

9 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Yes, exactly. That's what I have realized recently. It's all absolute truth so there's no point in looking any further. The problem, though, is that I have realized that before, about a year and a half ago, but somehow lost it. So, this time I'm trying to lock it down once and for all. Kinda like taming the ox before returning back home.

What you mean here is not clear, and perhaps why it is "problematic" and was "lost".

The "trying" you speak of is born of the mind. And is believed to be necessary.

The "locking down" you speak of is a desire of the mind to control. And is believed to be wanted.

You're putting the cart before the ox.

You're not home.

It was/is never left.

 

[kbone]

10 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

But it doesn't make sense why I would wake myself up during the dream. If the purpose is to experience delusion, then why do I want to know my true identity? It feels more likely that I want a semi state between truth and delusion. Then again, delusion does not really exist. So no explanations make any sense anyway.

There are similarities and distinctions between being conscious of being within a dream and awaking from the dream.

Even in your nightly dreams, I'm sure you've realized at some point, "Hey, I may be dreaming", at which point you begin to look around and see all these little thingies that don't quite belong for some reason, you start to create memories of the dream that don't quite fit, you start to get that uneasy feeling wondering WTF is really going on, and things start to spin out of control.

Meanwhile, NotTwoness starts to Dream of a self-identified person stirring in the dreamy sleep of their delusion.

Does that make sense?

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, kbone said:

What you mean here is not clear, and perhaps why it is "problematic" and was "lost".

It means that I used to create a distinction between absolute truth and my thoughts. I thought that reality could and should be different. I forgot that it's inevitable. This disconnection caused me to unrealize what I had realized, and to believe that there's something wrong or false within reality. Now I don't, and I hope it sticks.

1 hour ago, kbone said:

The "trying" you speak of is born of the mind. And is believed to be necessary.

The "locking down" you speak of is a desire of the mind to control. And is believed to be wanted.

But what isn't born of the mind when reality is an infinite mind?

Believed to be necessary/wanted or not is not up to me.

Also, If there are no stages and I should immediately become 100% enlightened, then why do the 10 ox herding and other models exist?

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, kbone said:

Even in your nightly dreams, I'm sure you've realized at some point, "Hey, I may be dreaming", at which point you begin to look around and see all these little thingies that don't quite belong for some reason, you start to create memories of the dream that don't quite fit, you start to get that uneasy feeling wondering WTF is really going on, and things start to spin out of control.

I don't remember that happening to me at all. I think I've never awakened inside of a night dream. But I do confirm that I now have a higher awareness inside night dreams. I rarely have nightmares, and even when I do, they don't faze me like before anymore. I have fought against the fear of death, and I have made a huge progress, even though still not complete progress.

1 hour ago, kbone said:

Meanwhile, NotTwoness starts to Dream of a self-identified person stirring in the dreamy sleep of their delusion.

Does that make sense?

I can't really tell.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Gesundheit

[kbone]

13 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

It means that I used to create a distinction between absolute truth and 1) my thoughts. 2)I thought that reality could and should be different. I forgot that it's inevitable. This disconnection caused me to unrealize what I had realized, and to believe that there's something wrong or false within reality. Now I don't, and 3) I hope it sticks.

4) But what isn't born of the mind when reality is an infinite mind?

5) Believed to be necessary/wanted or not is not up to me.

Also, If there are 6) no stages and I should immediately become 100% enlightened, then why do the 10 ox herding and other models exist?

1) Absolute Truth includes thoughts. Kick the self-referential bias of "my thoughts" to the curb to reduce the confusion. Thinking happens.

2) Yes, It IS what It Is. I don't even know what inevitable means, unless it alludes to transrational perfection... as IT is.

3) Don't hope; it just spawns doubt. Unconscious self-referential thinking is at the root.

4) Mind is movement of thought. What is not thought is not born of the mind. The mind is born of Infinite Mind (just a way of talking about it). That's why watching it is possible.

5) What is believed to be necessary/wanted is born of the mind, as is the "me"... all part of the same movement of thought.

6) Stages and models are born of the mind, too. It's just a way of talking about things. Again, all part of the same movement of thought.... just as the "I-person" is.

What Is IS, regardless of thoughts about IT.

 

Having said all this, what would you say enlightenment is?