Any deeper thoughts on Adolf?

[PurpleTree]

He seems like an interesting case.

Doesn't seem like a strongman of the sort of for example Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Xi? etc.

Wanted to be an artist so he had some creative talent.

Deep into the occult if we look at some of the symbolism. Also the nazis apparently went all over the world to find artefacts etc. And Hitler was a member of the Thule society at some point which apparently was an a Germanic, Occult, Antisemitic group.

Used propaganda to its full extent. But also the US, UK used it very well at the time.

Really deeply hated Jews and Communism or else he wouldn't have basically sacrificed a big and important part of his army in the Russian winter.

Apparently on drugs a lot, at least that's what some people say.

Do you think Germany at that point in history, getting an unfair deal from WW1, poverty, anger, shame etc. would have exploded anyways and Hitler was just the "outlet"

Or was he really a character which was very important to history, especially European history and changed the face of the world forever.

[Vrubel]

If you look at the main reasons why Europeans went to war with each other since the 17th century it was basically to maintain the 'proper' power balance on the continent. Of course, everybody had its own ideas of a proper power balance hence the wars. Ever since German reunification in the 1800's, it became clear that the Germans will become the most dominant power on the continent because they were industrialized, had a massive population and a large territory (Germany used to be way bigger than it is now). Britain and France were particularly very uncomfortable with a strong Germany. These tensions led up to ww1 where Germany was defeated and forced to make concessions. You probably know about the treaty of Versaille. The treaty was harsh but in those days harsh treaties for defeated nations were the norm. For example, the Brest-Litovsk treaty where Russia had to give up the Ukraine and large parts of eastern Europe was arguably harsher.
But nonetheless, Germans suffered a lot after ww1 mainly due to high reparations costs that led to hyperinflation. This gave them the resentfulness and bitterness that eventually would lead up to Hitler's election. If we look at things from the perspective of a 1930's German, he will still think that Germany deserves its place as a top European superpower. And within the general paradigm (Zeitgeist) of that time, he was not necessarily wrong because the Germans were indeed a cramped in nation that had the potential to become Europe's big superpower.  
Of course, this resentfulness and the feeling of deserving to be a superpower was expressed by scapegoating the Jews, becoming fascist and subscribing to the theory of racial superiority and a to the vision of a grand divine destiny for the German nation. Or in short, becoming a Nazi.

After ww2 Germany was again defeated and this time the Germans could no longer have any self-righteous nationalist ideas. Why? Because of the sheer cruelty and inhumanness of its conduct of war and of course most importantly the Holocaust. After the Germans sobered up from their ideological intoxication. Germany owned up and took responsibility for this low-point in the history of humanity. This feeling of responsibility to maintain the truth of the holocaust and its war crimes is what defines the modern german people today and is also something that makes them more mature and developed.

I hope I addressed some of your points regarding the reasons for the war, how Hitler fitted in, and how the war changed the world forever, well enough.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Vrubel

[Blackhawk]

The tragedy of mankind is that as long as you are good at making sounds with your mouth your power on earth is almost unlimited.

And the opposite is also true. If you can't talk, you are nothing.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Blackhawk

[Zega]

You can start with analyzing where Germany was after WWI on the spiral dynamics scale, where Hitler was, and where he brought Germany on the scale.

[Lews Therin]

30 minutes ago, Zega said:

You can start with analyzing where Germany was after WWI on the spiral dynamics scale, where Hitler was, and where he brought Germany on the scale.

And where would you say he was?

He seems like a pretty solid Blue with shades of Red.

The weimar republic seems mostly Orange, maybe with little shades of Green (looking at the constitution)

Whereas the people were hungry and so were tending to regress to perhaps a lower shade of Blue...

These are my thoughts, what are yours?

[No Self]

Hitler himself had an extremely brutal step-father who beat him pretty much no matter what he did. He also experienced trauma during WWI and further pain when his artwork was rejected.

He retained his vegetarianism and a highly evolved concern for animal welfare. However, the message is that sensitive people, when pushed too far by the world's insanity, can become monsters themselves. After all, the Holocaust was essentially an inhumane slaughterhouse for humans.

Hitler did the right thing in restoring Germany from its state of ruin, but did not do the right thing in resorting to expansionist, vengeful policies that caused mass casualties globally. And the Holocaust, while ultimately a 'mistake', remains a low point in human history that should never be explained away.

Compared to his Soviet counterpart, Hitler's genuine passion for his country and authentic belief in conspiracy theories against the Jewish population at least show he had some personal integrity. Stalin, meanwhile, enjoyed torturing and murdering his own most loyal comrades just to maintain a culture of chaotic paranoia. He left his own son to die in a concentration camp. Who could imagine a worse person?

All of us benefit from the technology that Hitler pushed so heavily. You can thank him for rockets that make your satellite services work, jet-powered airplanes and more. And the aftermath of Hitler's death made Germany one of the few decently 'sane' large nations on Earth.

All in all, WWI and WWII were a devastating experience for humanity and a huge number of primitive individuals, institutions and systems all played a role. Oversimplifying with scapegoating one man is not helpful.

Hitler had been regarded as a clown until economic ruin hit Germany, then he became viewed as a saviour. The Western world's grievances today are pitiful by comparison, mostly to do with people's feelings being hurt by others on the internet having incompatible viewpoints. And yet, the machines of social media working to radicalise the population mean we risk seeing a resurgence of this type of non-reality-based politics led by charismatic clowns.

If you have used Facebook, you will realise that there are literally millions of 'Hitlers' on the internet. The only difference is that we have not been putting them in positions of power, though we are starting to get dangerously close at times.

[TrustTheProcess]

9 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you think Germany at that point in history, getting an unfair deal from WW1, poverty, anger, shame etc. would have exploded anyways and Hitler was just the "outlet"

This is exactly it. 

 

[lmfao]

Jordan Peterson has brought Hitler quite a few times in his lectures,  interesting points of view if you're interested in listening to JP. I don't have the interest now to watch JP, but I used to and I'm glad I did, picked up a few random things. So some people will find value. 

I only remember this lecture in particular where Hitler came up unexpectedly when talking about conscientiousness. Disgust sensitivity, Immune system against pathogens, authoritarianism, putting the world into boxes, etc. Interesting stuff.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3641067/

So the hypothesis here. Prevalence of infectious disease pathogens (a particular type of threat to survival) -----> More authoritarianism. Also wanting to mix with out groups less (e.g. another race or foreign civilisation, fear of the unknown )

Here's a random example which partially illustrates "why" fear of outgroups might exist as an evolution mechanism. 

Quote

When the Europeans arrived, carrying germs which thrived in dense, semi-urban populations, the indigenous people of the Americas were effectively doomed. They had never experienced smallpox, measles or flu before, and the viruses tore through the continent, killing an estimated 90% of Native Americans.

----
Hitler always described the jews using medical terminology, like they were a pathogen. "Disgust" being a key emotion in all this. I suppose in this case of Hitler or such normalised genocide, disgust was marketed and riled up in people somehow. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by lmfao

[DocWatts]

One aspect of Hitler's rise to power that I don't see emphasized enough is the incredibly dangerous nature of Conspiracy Theories, and how Hitler's worldview was largely that of Conspiracy Theorist. The basis of Hitler's political philosophy was founded in a number of Conspiracy Theories that were prevalent in his day.

First and foremost was a baseless conspiracy propagated by German Military leadership in the wake of WW1, which refused to take responsibility for losing the war, and claimed that the German Army was 'stabbed in the back' by Jews and Socialists just as Germany was about to turn the tide. The true nature of how badly the war was going for Germany was concealed from the population, and because Allied troops never really occupied German soil, the German Military was able to spin this as a war they were on the verge of winning, when this wasn't at all the case.

Second was the idea that a Cabal of Jews and Socialists comprised a hidden Elite that were the ones pulling the strings of the world's governments. Much of this can be traced back to an anti-Semitic hoax Document called 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion', which was a fictional first-hand account of a Jewish console detailing their plans for world domination. Important to note that this portrayed the Jewish Elite as sneaky and vulnerable rather than intimidating, as this made it easier to scapegoat and intimidate Jews without fear of retribution. In many ways this was the culmination of Centuries of fear and suspicion of Jewish Outsiders, and a more modern take on The Jews poisoning the Village Well. These views were far from uncommon at the time, and in fact Hitler took great inspiration from the anti-Semitism of Henry Ford. Hitler was able to intertwine this Conspiratorial belief with a widespread fear of Communism to great effect.

If you take Hitler's Conspiratorial mindset into consideration, some of the seemingly irrational decisions that Nazi Germany took during the course of WW2 makes more sense, such as declaring war on the United States after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, when it wasn't immediately obvious whether the United States would get involved in the European theatre or not. From Hitler's point of view, a hidden Elite of Jewish Socialists who happened to be in control of most of the governments of the world was Germany's real enemy, and with that in mind, and with this in mind Germany was already at war with the United States, so to speak.

Edited December 6, 2020 by DocWatts

[No Self]

9 hours ago, DocWatts said:

One aspect of Hitler's rise to power that I don't see emphasized enough is the incredibly dangerous nature of Conspiracy Theories

Nothing to worry about. It was a long time ago and fortunately, there are no conspiracy theories today. 

[DocWatts]

12 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Also his ideology sucks, Mein Kampf is racial pseudoscience with a whole chapter about how race mixing produces mentally deficient people.

Sadly this was far from uncommon in that era; people like Henry Ford, Winston Churchill, and the American Progressive movement of the 1910s and 20s bought in to the pseudoscience of eugenics. Hitler just took that ideology to its logical and horrific conclusion.

[Preety_India]

To me Hitler is a solid combination of red and Blue. He used brute force to get what he wanted. 

However i don't see Hitler as a narcissist. To me he was drunk in passion, he wanted something, a purpose, probably the best example of a delusional toxic life purpose.. 

I don't think Hitler wanted power but righteousness. In his mind what he was doing was exactly right and necessary. It seems he put his creative energy into politics and wanted it to thrive. 

His ideas were too extreme and far fetched, from the depth of pure madness. 

I wonder what Hitler would have been like if he were a young man today, would he be equally mad or would he chill himself in a bunker with psychedelics. 

One thing is true. Hitler was a brave soldier. He took risks unlike the draft dodger in the white house right now. He won medals in the army. Yet it sounds inappropriate to associate the word brave with someone like Hitler. 

I often wonder if there can ever be a positive version of Hitler. Someone kind and protective yet upfront brave and tenacious. Someone open minded to all races and yet resilient and passionate and firm in their pursuit of life.. 

[PurpleTree]

Also one thing i don't really understand with Hitler is why did send his troops to Russia (in winter at that) and declare war to the US.

This was basically suicide for Germany.

If Germany at that time had a leader which was (just a little bit) more sensible they would probably be a lot bigger in terms of landmass

and also more powerful and influential now.

[Preety_India]

@PurpleTree the problem is that Hitler wasn't sensible and saw Stalin as a threat to Germany. 

 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Also one thing i don't really understand with Hitler is why did send his troops to Russia (in winter at that) and declare war to the US.

To understand why Hitler sent troops in to Russia, you have to understand the Ideological motivations behind Nazi Germany's war aims. Hitler and the Nazis saw the Soviet Union as the beating heart of the Jewish-Socialism that lie at the core of the Conspiracy Theories that their whole ideology was constructed around, and the Nazis saw themselves in a heroic war of annihilation to save Germany and Europe from Communism and Jew-ery.

In addition to this, there are a number of strategic reasons that would have pushed Germany into war with the Soviet Union. A big one is geographic, since Germany found itself in the unenviable situation of being in the center of a two front war; ie having Britain and France to the West, and Russia to the East. Another strategic reason is that Germany didn't have the oil production capabilities to sustain their war efforts, so the oil fields and production facilities in Russia were vitally important to Germany; the fact that they just happened to be located in the territory of Nazi Germany's ideological enemy was a nice bonus. And after the war, another of Germany's ultimate goals was to seize Russian terrorizes to provide living space and resources for ethnic Germans, after a horrific extermination campaign of Slavic people that was going to be much larger in scope than the Holocaust. 

While we can look back with the benefit of foresight and see that Operation Barbarossa was doomed for a variety of reasons, everyone at the time falsely believed that the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse, and that just one good kick was needed to send the entire structure collapsing down. The campaign was supposed to be over relatively quickly, due to German technological superiority and organization, and due to the previous success of the Blitzkrieg strategy; it was not supposed to last into the Winter, which is why Winter coats and gear were not provided to the German  military. Even though some of his advisors warned him that the war might drag on in to the Winter and his troops would freeze to death without Winter gear, Hitler disregarded this because he didn't want the possibility of long, drawn out struggle hurting morale.

As far as declaring war on the United States, a few things to keep in mind. The United States was pivotal in keeping Britain in the war due to cash and supply shipments. And from Hitler's Conspiratorial point of view, he saw the United States as under the influence of the same worldwide Jewish Conspiracy that was he was already at war with in Europe and Russia.

Edited December 7, 2020 by DocWatts

[Epikur]

One reason he was so mad at the Jews was the Balfour Declaration I guess.
 

Quote

The main goal of the Balfour Declaration as far as Britain was concerned was to reduce the opposition of the American Jewish community to going to war on its side. Among the reasons the declaration was written as a letter to Lord Rothschild was also the consideration that the Rothschild family’s connections with Jewish financiers in New York would aid in this mission.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-britain-s-true-motivation-behind-the-balfour-declaration-1.5462518

 

 

[Epikur]

Btw 

Quote

Man named Adolf Hitler Uunona wins election in Namibia, says he isn’t seeking ‘world domination’
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/12/03/namibia-election-adolf-hitler-uunona/

[Yog]

I like JPs take on the collective psychological co-play between him and the people.
 

 

[Persipnei]

On 7-12-2020 at 3:40 PM, PurpleTree said:

... and declare war to the US.

It was my understanding the US declared when Japan attacked PH?

 

 

Thing is, it happened 80 years ago, no direct witnesses remain. We all know that the victor writes history, so the main reason Hitler is the Big Bad Evil Guy is because the historians made him like this. If Germany had won, the Churchills and Roosevelts would have been the bad guys in our history books.

And please don't turn my words around. I'm not saying he was a good guy, just that our perception of what he was is colored by history.

[Epikur]

6 hours ago, Persipnei said:

It was my understanding the US declared when Japan attacked PH?

 

 

Thing is, it happened 80 years ago, no direct witnesses remain. We all know that the victor writes history, so the main reason Hitler is the Big Bad Evil Guy is because the historians made him like this. If Germany had won, the Churchills and Roosevelts would have been the bad guys in our history books.

And please don't turn my words around. I'm not saying he was a good guy, just that our perception of what he was is colored by history.

No it was because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour.

Anyway I read that Hitler hoped the Japanese would help him and attack Stalin.

Apparently few years before they had a little war and Japan lost. So it seems that Japan looked for the "easier" target the US otherwise Japan had to leave China.


 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Epikur