The Psychology of the Blackpill and it's destructive effects

[ColeMC01]

@Preety_India Thank you for all the advice.

I am not insecure about my looks, i consider myself to be a decent looking guy and have been called cute by many girls (also not been the type of others so it really depends on girl), so it is not about looks with me.

My issue is my personality is very logical, analytical and deep. Not a lot of flirting, spontaneousty and even if i manage to get these things ok in some cases i ABSOLUTELY SUCK at getting physical. I can get a girl next to me sitting and i wont be able to do anything physical more than touch her arm LOL.

Those are my issues, lack of charm and skills in getting physical and boldness

[Preety_India]

@ColeMC01  that only comes through practice and breaking out of comfort zones

 

[soos_mite_ah]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@soos_mite_ah

yea it sounds manipulative. But it doesn't have to be that way. The guy can simply try to get a woman to be with him. But this is a part of initial attraction. And some manipulation is always involved on both sides consciously or subconsciously. 

Women are also gaming men, only they don't realize it. 

But once he gets her attention and affection, that's when it gets tricky. If the goal was to only go on a few dates with her, no problem if she wants the same. However if she falls in love with him, that's where he needs to be sincere with her and invest more emotionally into the relationship and take it seriously and be a long term boyfriend to her. 

That's how gaming gets ethical.. 

If he slept with her a few times but  found another girl or simply dumped her or broke her heart, in the sense using her, I'd call it unethical gaming.. 

Men and women are always gaming each other, either consciously or unconsciously (subconsciously) because this is how our biological instincts direct us. We do everything to get the attention of someone we are attracted to. 

This does not mean hurting someone or betraying them. It only means a slight manipulative game is always involved in trying to attract a partner. 

A woman might try to act more feminine to get the attention of the guy she is with while a man might act extra romantic or try to act funny confident to get her to like him. 

These are all manipulative games and we're subconsciously playing them without actually realizing it. 

Dating is a type of gaming. A woman rejecting a man is also a part of her game, because she does not see the man as equal to her idea of desirable, she wants a better man to game her. 

Everyone is setting their own rules and playing games in the end. 

A woman is setting her rules for attraction. A man is setting his rules for attraction. 

But hurting someone is called "being an asshole" or playing with emotions which is not a good idea. Attracting people is one thing but treating them kindly is another. That's like the next step. 

Once the guy has won the woman's affection I expect him to invest more seriously in the relationship and continue it long term without cheating. 

And if he isn't ready for a long term relationship, I expect him to get to know what she wants and be honest and sincere about his intentions if his don't match hers. 

Unethical would be if a man is not being honest with his intentions, playing multiple women at once and two timing the affections of several women, treating a woman like shit after having attracted her, cheating on the woman who he sleeps with, breaking her heart in the end, looking for casual sex without mentioning it, being emotionally abusive and the list goes on and on and on. 

Gaming with good intentions of finding the right partner to be with you, absolutely nothing wrong with it because attraction is biologically selfish however playing emotional games or mind games and using strategies to hurt a person, that's where it begins to get unethical and shallow. 

Gaming inherently is not unethical. It's how you set the rules of the game that makes it ethical or unethical. 

Of course there is nothing wrong with gaming, trying to be attractive, and putting your best foot forward as long as there is honest intentions. If anything I think it's absolutely necessary if not intrinsic. Nothing wrong with being romantic, masculine, feminine, having space to not seem clingy etc.

But my thing is the love bombing. Often times love bombing and doing too much too soon can lead a person into a toxic relationship where the love bomber becomes possessive and abusive towards them. The other thing is targeting malleable girls who don't know any better and wouldn't mind getting into a situation like this without knowing the consequences. Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with people with less experience, but it's important to know and be on the look out for red flags. And to me, going after naive people who don't know better and them getting love bomb looks like a recipe for disaster especially in regards to power dynamics in a relationship. Healthy people look for their equal so that there can be reciprocity in the relationship. Manipulators look for people who don't know any better and try to lure them in. 

[Preety_India]

@soos_mite_ah  yea true. But that's the nature of relationships in this world. It's hardly ever equal. A perfectly healthy relationship is a mirage. Most relationships are born out of needs and most relationships are born out of a dynamic which is usually not healthy but the partners try to find happiness within that. 

It's a predator and prey sadly. That's the real world. But it's not too bad if the person is honest and sincere. So even if he used manipulation he can still be happy with the woman and she can be with him. 

Dating is not spiritual. Relationships are not spiritual. Romance is not spiritual. Survival is not spiritual. 

Only love can be spiritual. But the love between a man and a woman can hardly be called love, it's mere attraction and need satisfaction. As base as it sounds, the reality is that spiritual relationships are the rarest and people like me learn this the harder way. 

There is no fantasy Prince Charming out there. Most men leave when the girl gets fat. 

I'm the wrong one to assume that reality should be my way. I'm wrong in putting more meaning into something that is just mundane. It's my farcical perception of things and reality will give me a big slappening if I keep being farcical. 

In reality, dating is a cruel game of survival and needs and gratification, the way video games are. If you launched a spiritual video game where people have to simply meditate and no big rewards, who will play such a game? The answer is nobody or very few. 

Dating is unconscious, inherently. Just like drinking and gambling is unconscious. To expect consciousness out of dating is like asking a drinker to be a healthy addict. Once you are in the mud, there is nothing really pure there. Dating is also a mud. But it is made to look nice by movies and books and novels that feed this naive idea that dating = the most honorable life.. This is done to keep humanity going, because" survival ". It's the same way people legitimize and rationalize doing dangerous drugs because they don't want to keep doing it but they want to defend it. 

Dating is a sport. It's like coffee. People are looking for a strong coffee, not a spiritual coffee. 

Most men are looking for a hot girl for a good time. Most women are looking for a good partner who can give them what they want. 

There is nothing less manipulative in dating. If the woman has something to offer then she will find a man who wants her offering, if a man has a lot to offer, he will find a woman who can match his needs. 

It's not so much about love. Love is just a veneer in dating. 

Women should stop having fantasies of pure love, true love, this love, that love. Pure love is fiction. 

In real life love is merely two people getting along with their individual needs satisfied and with a common goal or partnership. 

Since most relationships aren't fundamentally based in love, they fall apart for the same reasons, because anything devoid of true love cannot last forever. It has come to a bitter end. 

The foundation of most relationships is selfishness. 

Even the foundation of the most conscious relationships is selfishness as well, because the consciousness is also practiced to finally benefit each other. It's like conscious capitalism, where the capitalist is trying to benefit the masses but it's not selfless, it is for profit again, only less cruel or exploitative. 

You can find more balanced, less exploitative relationships but these will be rare because human nature is inherently selfish, no matter how spiritual you become, you can't keep denying human nature, it takes extreme level of self control, effort and penance to live very selflessly and most people can't do that. 

People can be manipulative in order to get a partner but the learning lesson is not to hurt someone or play unethical. One can play ethical and make each other happy. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

I mean there isn't anything wrong with getting your needs met in a relationship. In fact, I think its necessary/ healthy for both parties to an extent. Nothing wrong with having another person as a source of your needs as long as you can also meet those same needs yourself so you don't end up being dependent on the other person. Ain't nothing wrong with having needs or being attracted to someone. Those aren't inherently selfish and they can be met through ethical means. Idk if this makes sense, but if meeting your needs and catering to your tastes is selfish, then hell you could say eating your favorite foods to be characterized as selfish. 

Speaking of selfishness, there is a gradient of selfishness that a relationship can fall under. There is a baseline healthy level where people have standards and boundaries with their partners (which really isn't selfishness in my books) and then there is the extreme where people become abusive and manipulative. I agree, conscious relationships are difficult to come by but by working on yourself can you attract better partners. In that way, people tend to date on their own level. If you are in a healthy emotional state, you are much less likely to give into other people's foolery because you don't have as many insecurities or weak spots to get toyed with. You aren't going to want a strong super passionate, all over the place, dramatic, or chaotic relationship if you are stable and if you have other positive things going on in your life like a solid life purpose and a good career. You simply won't have the time or patience for that type of behavior. Also IMO, a relationship doesn't necessarily have to be spiritual per se in order to be good/ fulfilling for both parties. 

And I know that you described dating as inherently unconscious like gambling and drinking. To that comparison I'll say this, you can have a couple glasses of wine on a regular basis without being a raging alcoholic and you can go to a casino for a good time without being a gambler. Can those things go awry if you are in a bad mental state and are using them as a coping mechanism to avoid the bigger issues in your life, sure, absolutely 100%. But you can still date and gamble every now and then and not have it completely consume you. Same thing with dating and relationships. You can do it on a regular basis in a healthy way or you can use it as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Either way, how problematic dating is is not dependent on dating itself, it's dependent on the person who is trying to date. Same thing with alcohol. Nothing wrong with the alcohol itself, instead there is something wrong with person not being able to be in control for numerous other contributing factors. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[Preety_India]

@soos_mite_ah  also love is not love. The only true love probably is what a mother feels for her child. Or a father. But even then it's not pure, because it's biological hence its again out of chemicals and hormones and not out of spirituality. Will a mother love the neighbor's child? Most likely not. 

We try to make everything sound pure and true and blissful, but it is hardly that. God can see through our games and masks. 

When two people love each other, it's not so pure. When some guy says to you that he loves you, what it means is that he is attracted to you, not 'he loves you.' the wording is delightful, the meaning is not. When two people love each other, they're simply bullshitting each other into believing they love each other. 

The man is bullshitting himself by believing that he is really loving the woman. The woman is bullshitting herself by believing that he really loves her. Both are bullshitting themselves and each other at the same time because they both like the idea of being in a relationship, it gives them a sense of security, although this sense of security is false, just like money is false. Anything about survival is false. Because survival and primal were never meant to be spiritual. 

True security lies within us, not outside of us. The locus of control is inside, not outside. 

That's why relationships never last. They are inherently built on a false foundation. 

Any relationship that lasts, does because of social rules and pressure, needs, obligations, duties and self restraint and conscious decision making to stay with the partner. It is hardly out of pure love.. There is always a selfish motivation somewhere.

Of course there can be what we can call basic human consideration. But that's not the same as love. 

To have the capacity to love unconditionally is very God like and deeply spiritual and is very hard to find in a ruthless dating market. 

You can't find a medicine bottle in a bar. It's not the right place, it's meant for liquor bottles. 

For a medicine bottle you need to go to a pharmacy. 

For pure love, you need to look inside. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

For pure love, you need to look inside. 

I 100% agree. Ultimately, you are the one who has to accept yourself and do what's best for you. And for people who are looking for relationships that means looking for a high quality partner and not settling. 

And if  you want to get spiritual, you could say everything is a form of love. You're love, I'm love, selfishness is love (albeit a more limited form), divine expansiveness is love, relationships are love, war is love, consciousness is love, ego is love etc. 

But when it comes to relative forms of love, I guess you're talking about unconditional love like that of a parent. That type of love isn't healthy for a romantic relationship. Like a relationship between two consenting adults shouldn't have a parent child dynamic. That will lead to a lot of codependency. In the relative sense, I don't believe in unconditional love outside of a parent child relationship. If a guy is being an asshole towards me, I'm not going to stick around and "love" him. I'm going to walk away. My love isn't unconditional to where I will allow a guy to treat me like trash. A lot of people also make the argument in toxic relationships that are along the lines of "oh if you really love him, you would stay no matter what" and to me that's messed up. I would make the argument that leaving someone who isn't healthy for you is a greater act of self love and it's also loving to the other person because you are giving them consequences for their bad action to which they can either reflect on what they did wrong and work on themselves or not. Either way, in that situation, you aren't putting yourself in a position where you are hurting yourself by staying and you aren't validating the other person's bad behavior which is also a form of love. 

The only time I think there should be "unconditional love" is with one's child. Because the child didn't ask to be brought to this world and for their development into a healthy person, they need to internalize that sense of unconditional love from the parent so that they have unconditional, pure love, inside themselves. That would enable them to make good decisions as an adult to where they wouldn't even be attracted to dysfunction. Of course, that's much easier said than done. 

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Speaking of selfishness, there is a gradient of selfishness that a relationship can fall under. There is a baseline healthy level where people have standards and boundaries with their partners

It is selfish one way or another. By making it sound less selfish, we cannot ignore the selfishness. I'm not trying to say it's evil. But it is not rosy. 

And nobody is truly born fully healthy. My mom used to always tell me - "there are only a few mentally healthy people in this world." and that is true. Most people in a population are unhealthy and unconscious. Look at how many people stay on this forum at any time. In comparison look at how many people are on social media? How many people genuinely care about others? 

The answer is that you can be a very conscious person but you will still be having to deal with a very unconscious crowd. You can be a very conscious woman dealing with a very unconscious boyfriend and trying to manage him. 

You can be a very conscious person living in an unconscious family. 

Relationships are not always about choice. You can choose to be with a person who appears conscious but few years later becomes a totally different person. 

Selfishness of course has a gradient. But all you're doing is just trying to navigate around it. But that doesn't change what it is fundamentally. 

I can say I have a pet snake and say that it won't bite me. But a snake is a snake nevertheless. 

You might not consider it as selfishness because your ego doesn't want to see it that way. Your ego will have a massive backlash if you were told that 90% of your actions in life are born out of selfishness. 

And selfishness is only more palpable when another person is involved. If I eat a fruit, the question of selfishness doesn't matter much because the fruit is non living and doesn't have needs. But if I were with a man and he suddenly suffers cancer and I decided to dump him for my needs, then I might say that I'm not being selfish, just taking care of my needs, but in his mind I'm being selfish. See how it works? 

What you see as selfless harmless self satisfaction is still seen as selfish from another's perspective. 

Your ego can always swish and dance around it but the truth that it is selfish will always remain. 

Even your ego is selfish because it uses myriad defense mechanisms to convince and protect you. That's why ego backlashes are so hard because they go against our very basic selfish instincts. 

 

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

But when it comes to relative forms of love, I guess you're talking about unconditional love like that of a parent.

Even a mother's love is selfish. 

Because true unconditional love means a capacity to love anyone the same way. 

Yes there are less expectations when loving a child but the expectations aren't totally zero and much of this love is based on obligation so the question of expectations doesn't arise. 

If a mother is so capable of unconditional love, would she be able to love her neighbor's child the same way she loves her child? Why not? 

Because the love she has is not rooted in spirituality but in hormones and biology. It is not a conscious love but an instinct based love. 

A mother's love only sounds unconditional in context. But in its absolute form, it is a conditional love born out of and influenced by biology. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Preety_India

[No Self]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Because true unconditional love means a capacity to love anyone the same way. 

Absolutely, and I wish that there were more discussions with this level of profundity around here.

I can't speak from a woman's perspective, but I sometimes wonder if a typical young woman really wants to be hit on 8,000 times per day by all the internet pick-up artists? If the intention is satisfying one's own so-called needs (the Self has no needs), all this is surely the exact opposite of love?

The highest love involves seeing all other beings as the same thing as one's self. What Jesus said about loving other as one's self is commonsense from this perspective. Empathy with others would be a natural consequence.

Imagine how simple life would be if people could control their own bodies and minds without preying on others?

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, No Self said:

Imagine how simple life would be if people could control their own bodies and minds without preying on others?

Yep

[soos_mite_ah]

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

And nobody is truly born fully healthy. My mom used to always tell me - "there are only a few mentally healthy people in this world." and that is true. Most people in a population are unhealthy and unconscious. Look at how many people stay on this forum at any time. In comparison look at how many people are on social media? How many people genuinely care about others? 

Yeah people aren't born fully healthy. Which is why it's important to work on yourself and your quality of life and steer away from the crazies of the world. I don't expect anyone to be 100% healthy and perfect but I do expect someone to strive to be a better version of themselves and move towards some from of expansion. 

 

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

The answer is that you can be a very conscious person but you will still be having to deal with a very unconscious crowd. You can be a very conscious woman dealing with a very unconscious boyfriend and trying to manage him. 

Whether or not you are conscious, you will have to deal with unconscious people. That's just life and that's ok. But that doesn't mean you let all of those people in. You have to pick and choose. And odds are a very conscious woman wouldn't want to manage an unconscious boyfriend. A conscious woman would likely have her own life and have higher standards to where she wouldn't be attracted to an unconscious guy. As they say, birds of the same feather flock together. 

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You can be a very conscious person living in an unconscious family. 

Relationships are not always about choice. You can choose to be with a person who appears conscious but few years later becomes a totally different person. 

Selfishness of course has a gradient. But all you're doing is just trying to navigate around it. But that doesn't change what it is fundamentally. 

And yeah there are relationships that you don't have much of a choice in such as family. But you can also distance yourself from those people if you find that they don't resonate with you or if you find them to be destructive. If you are conscious, you would try to get out. When it comes to relationships, people change and that's ok. Relationships don't have to last forever and sometimes people grow in different ways and grow apart and it's best not to force those circumstances because they can be harmful for both parties. Walking away isn't selfishness, it can also be a form of love. 

 

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Selfishness of course has a gradient. But all you're doing is just trying to navigate around it. But that doesn't change what it is fundamentally. 

I can say I have a pet snake and say that it won't bite me. But a snake is a snake nevertheless. 

You might not consider it as selfishness because your ego doesn't want to see it that way. Your ego will have a massive backlash if you were told that 90% of your actions in life are born out of selfishness. 

 And I don't see why you need to change it fundamentally. Of course no one wants to see their actions as selfish because that threatens their ego and survival and most of our actions are selfish. Again, it comes down to quality. It's relative

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What you see as selfless harmless self satisfaction is still seen as selfish from another's perspective. 

And that's perfectly fine. I guess we just have a different perception on what consists of selfishness and what consists of love. To each their own. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[Emerald]

The reason why is because guys don't know what women really respond to and why, because they haven't experienced the attraction toward a man as a woman. This is true for all men. There is just no way for men to know how things are from the female perspective because they are not women. 

But whenever there is uncertainty... in any and all situations involving uncertainty and the unknowable... the uncertainty become a blank projection screen where people can project whatever is happening in the subconscious onto that screen. The unconscious contents that get projected are things like hopes, fears, assumptions, and the like. 

So because of this projection screen effect that happens in response to uncertainty, men tend to project their subconscious contents onto the blank projection screen that is the uncertainty surrounding the subjective experience of the female attraction. And this can be uncomfortable for any man in that situation.

But for some men, the subconscious contents that they project onto female sexuality reflect their deep issues with self-esteem. And this leads to them having the MOST self-defeating interpretation of female sexuality.

Then, they work backwards from their conclusions about female sexuality that are projected out from their subconscious... then cherry pick tidbits of evidence that seem to support the views that confirm their fears about female sexuality. 

Then this results in anger and resentment towards women as a whole group and leaves them in a feeling of powerlessness... as they feel that they will never be accepted and loved by a woman. And this is at once its own fear... but there are deeper implications that they also project. 

They also project that the sexual acceptance of a woman IS the indicator of male worth and cherry pick parts of Darwinian theory and apply them to their own social circumstances. So, they then get into a cycle of self-flagellation where they then beat themselves up because "even science says" that I'm unworthy.

Really, what it is is deep feelings of powerlessness, unworthiness, and unlovability that then gets projected onto women, women's sexuality, and their social circumstances.

It is often missed by them that they are fully capable of attracting a woman. But it really isn't about that so much. It's so much more about self-worth than anything else. 

It's just that it feels to them that women are the sole judges of their worth. So, their self-worth issues play out on the sexual stage... but it goes deeper than that. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Emerald

[Preety_India]

22 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

But that doesn't mean you let all of those people in. You have to pick and choose. And odds are a very conscious woman wouldn't want to manage an unconscious boyfriend. A conscious woman would likely have her own life and have higher standards to where she wouldn't be attracted to an unconscious guy. As they say, birds of the same feather flock together. 

This is not true at all. I have seen conscious people being in unconscious relationships. It happens more often than you think. 

What you are forgetting is attraction is fundamentally unconscious. It is signaled by the brain chemicals that are not decided by conscious decisions. 

You can obviously make conscious decisions but you can't stray too far away from biology. 

You're looking for perfectionism. That's a nice goal but that's not pragmatic. 

You can learn from your mistakes and grow and expand but you can't guarantee that you will never make mistakes again. 

Nobody is that perfect. If you had to be that perfect then you will need to be very harsh on yourself which is a very difficult thing to do. 

You don't take into account that life is not controlled by a remote control. It happens as it happens. We can't control it all the time. It will be like walking on eggshells. 

Yes you can become better with time. But during the time that you are trying to become better you will still make lots of mistakes. 

Attraction is not very consciously decided. It's not like choosing a career. 

Even if you are healthy eating for 7 days you'll eat junk food at least on one day. 

So by being conscious you will try to attract good people but you will always have moments where you fall into a downspiral or fall away from your usual pattern.. 

Maybe you will sit in a bar and drink but you cannot sit and think "why am I drinking, this is so unconscious?" Lmao. because you can't decide every moment of your life. That would make you paranoid. That sort of perfectionism is very brutal and sometimes it actually makes you more unconscious than conscious. It can lead to severe repression and shadows. 

 

You can only control your mind so much.. Even the most perfect people in the world make monumental mistakes. 

You can't blame yourself or others for what's happening in your life and or theirs. 

The only thing that we can really do at the end of the day is grow but make peace with human nature instead of using the ego to defend it. 

Attraction is unconscious. A man is attracted to a hot body of a woman even if she is acting like a slut. He wants her even if she is bad for him. In the end when he has her as his girlfriend he suffers miserably because of her mind games. But he couldn't control the fact that he was attracted to her. 

No matter how much conscious he might try to be, he still finds that hot body attractive and every time he sees that, he forgets his consciousness and falls for it. 

Reality is a much bigger gamble than a strict pathway of conscious effort. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Preety_India

[soos_mite_ah]

@Preety_India I understand attraction is biological and often automatic, but to say you have no control is inaccurate, especially when it comes to being emotionally attracted to someone. It's very common to have your tastes in a partner change and be healthier after you work on yourself and clear away your traumas. In that way you do have control. Emotionally speaking you can ask yourself "hmm, why do I consistently attract or are attracted by *insert toxic trait or manipulation tactic*" not in a self deprecating way but as a way of accepting responsibility and taking back control of the situation/ patterns. From there you can address issues you had in past relationships, with your family etc. As far as physical attraction goes, that isn't the only factor when it comes to dating and relationships. There are plenty of guys who I can look at and say they are GORGEOUS, yet I have no desire to date or be around some of them because they have dumpster fire behavior tendencies. 

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is not true at all. I have seen conscious people being in unconscious relationships. It happens more often than you think. 

In those cases, I doubt their quality of their consciousness because again, if you clear out your traumas, there is less of a chance that your attraction is acting from those traumas. I do recognize that accidents happen and that sometimes you can be blindsided by a narcissist. Being attracted to a toxic person doesn't make you a horrible human being. If it is a recurring pattern, it's worth investigating and healing. But often times, there are prior red flags such as love bombing, which if a person was conscious and healthy, their internal alarm bells will start ringing and they won't be attracted to that person. 

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You're looking for perfectionism. That's a nice goal but that's not pragmatic. 

Who said I was looking for perfection? I want a guy who is going to be working on himself. I want to be in a relationship where we both keep each other accountable for our mistakes that will inevitably happen so we can grow together as people. And that's a reasonable standard. 

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Yeah people aren't born fully healthy. Which is why it's important to work on yourself and your quality of life and steer away from the crazies of the world. I don't expect anyone to be 100% healthy and perfect but I do expect someone to strive to be a better version of themselves and move towards some from of expansion. 

 

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You can't blame yourself or others for what's happening in your life and or theirs. 

The only thing that we can really do at the end of the day is grow but make peace with human nature instead of using the ego to defend it. 

Of course not, I agree, blaming yourself or others won't help. You need to be accepting towards the situation, only then can you grow.  But accepting the situation also comes with taking responsibility. And that includes taking responsibility for any unhealthy patterns you find yourself attracted to. It isn't your fault and there is not need to beat yourself up for it, but as a form of self care, it's worth investigating/ healing. 

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Attraction is unconscious. A man is attracted to a hot body of a woman even if she is acting like a slut. He wants her even if she is bad for him. In the end when he has her as his girlfriend he suffers miserably because of her mind games. But he couldn't control the fact that he was attracted to her. 

No matter how much conscious he might try to be, he still finds that hot body attractive and every time he sees that, he forgets his consciousness and falls for it. 

And there is nothing wrong with being attracted a hot body. But that doesn't always translate to acting on those desires for a myriad of instances. And I do see how physical attraction can cloud judgment. There is a halo effect after all. But if you know the signs and if you have set standards, its going to take more than looks to want to get in someone's pants or end up in a relationship with them. 

I'll give you an example. A lot of times I'm really bad with telling the ages of guys. When I was 20, I had a 17 year old guy who was still in high school flirt with me. We are close enough in age to where it isn't unusual for either of us to be physically attracted to the other. But does that mean I want to automatically get with him. HELL NO. Upon finding out he was 17, my first thought is "that's a child." Our dynamic would not be healthy because there is a clear power dynamic as I am older and have more life experience. Because I'm not a raging narcissist who is looking to have power over someone, I wasn't attracted to him to where I wanted to sleep with him or be in a relationship with him. I'm looking for an equal, not a pawn who is going to idolize me. He was all over the fact that I looked like I had my life together because I was in college and I had my major and everything sorted out while he was figuring things out. That's fine, we're just in different stages in our lives. But I had to take responsibility and be the adult by firmly putting my foot down and walking away from the situation. Thinking someone is attractive is natural but whether you act on and fall for it it involves so many other factors ranging from neurosis to self control. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[Preety_India]

42 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

If it is a recurring pattern, it's worth investigating and healing. But often times, there are prior red flags such as love bombing, which if a person was conscious and healthy, their internal alarm bells will start ringing and they won't be attracted to that person. 

This is so wrong. Love bombing is a part of attraction. It creates good feelings. One doesn't need to be healthy to not fall for it or unhealthy to fall for it. 

Had I not met a narcissist, would I have said that love bombing is bad? Of course not. Because it's not bad. Things only become bad when they are associated with hazardous things. For example fast driving or junk food. The only reason why don't want fast driving or junk food is because we know that it's bad for your health or safety. But remove the bad hazards or bad effects, what happens then. The only reason we choose bland tasteless food is out of deliberate decision not out of desire. If accidents didn't happen, people would be more than thrilled to drive at the fastest speeds. If junk food didn't give us heart attacks, people would be flocking to restaurants to gulp large amounts of junk food. 

Because desire is very strong and we only control it when we see a real downside in submitting to it. If we were to remove the toxicity, we would be more than willing to do what we are naturally drawn to. 

You're thinking that every toxic relationship is because of some kind of inner trauma. But how do you explain women who were wonderful, cheerful and happy and no idea what trauma is and still fell for assholes. What kind of healing should they look for when there is nothing to fix? 

The problem with your thinking is that it's very narrowly based in this thought that whatever happens to a person is always somehow connected to who they are, in your mind it just can't be otherwise. A person can still have a pattern of toxic relationships without anything being wrong with them. It's only plain coincidence that they are meeting good people or people they are not able to screen properly. This does not mean that there is something wrong with them or some inner trauma or self esteem issues, it just that they are meeting the wrong types and bad at judging people in general. 

You're completely forgetting that in each of these patterns there is a common trait a person is getting attracted to? Maybe each of the narcissists I met were nice and funny? Maybe they were incredibly handsome? You're only fixated on the negative aspects? How about the positive aspects? 

Did you see that I made a thread where I said that I don't want a romantic person anymore? Does that ring a bell? Does it mean that each of the men who I dated were particularly very attractive and romantic? Yes of course they were. 

And do you think that its unhealthy and unconscious for me to be attracted to hot attractive men? 

This is improper logic. It's like asking a man "why are you attracted to hot women, that must be something not healthy in you." 

The answer is not so cut and dry as you try to make it out to be. That only traumas are responsible for toxic relationships. No. 

You don't understand that there is major Paradox associated with relationships that Leo often talks about. And in many of my threads he talks about this. 

And Leo is right. I'm getting attracted to players because players are attractive, because they got game and gaming is very hard to not get attracted to. So there is a trade off here. If I want an attractive guy because of his game, I should also understand that he will likely do this with other girls as well since he got Power for it. 

And if I wanted a super loyal guy, maybe I should lower my standards and look for an average or unattractive guy with zero game because he has no way to try with other women so most likely he will just stick with me. 

So this becomes a paradox. You get a rose but you also get a thorn along with the rose. It's a risk - payoff game. 

I can easily be with a boring guy and the relationship will last really long, but I'll be bored. 

But if I'm with the most attractive guy in the crowd, chances are that my relationship with him is going to be rocky and no matter how sexy or beautiful I'm, he will have lots of women all over him and he can easily replace me with them. And this is what happens in reality. 

Cheating in relationships is directly proportional to lack of morals as well as availability of a hot side partner. Men are more likely to cheat when they can easily get women. When they are handsome and wealthy and lots of women are ready to sleep with them.. That astronomically increases the chances of cheating. 

It has less to do with inner trauma and more to do with attraction games, dating dynamic, social availability, cultural freedom.. 

One of my boyfriends was not so handsome. I don't like to call him ugly but no girl would like him. He never cheated. It was mostly my handsome boyfriends that cheated. Because when a man realizes he got no game, he is less likely to cheat, but the reason he doesn't have game is because he is not attractive..he had no charm.. 

So you forget that toxic relationships often are simply a person's toxic behavior in a relationship and nothing to do with the personality or trauma of the other person. 

Same goes for hot girls. A guy will have to work harder to keep her because she can easily find another man if he doesn't. 

One has to navigate around this paradox where you want the most beautiful thing in the world but it is also most expensive for the same reason. Or settle for something much cheaper yet its not that beautiful. 

You can't say that a person is being unhealthy in being  attracted to what is attractive. If I find a man funny and I'm attracted to him, there is really no way for me to know that he is going to be toxic in the relationship. The only way to find out is to actually be in a relationship with him. And then look for red flags. 

But the problem is that once you're in a relationship you're sort of tied to that person and getting out becomes a bit difficult. 

So don't be so narrow in your approach with why toxic relationships exist. They are many many factors. And trauma is only a single factor. In fact with time you will come across many many examples of healthy women in toxic relationships. 

They don't need any healing. They just need better ways to screen guys and experiment with a lot more guys to eventually find a guy who is not only attractive but also not an asshole. But him being an asshole is just bad luck, it's not her fault or lack that he turned out to be an asshole. Because she didn't enter the relationship with such expectation. In fact most assholes aren't assholes in the initial period, why in the world will a woman be stupid enough to choose an asshole? 

That's what game means. He is being attractive. He is not being an asshole. She is attracted. She has sex with him because she sees a beautiful future. She is happy with him and considers him a good choice. Only later his asshole colors begin to show and that's when she has to take the decision to dump him. Nothing wrong with her, she only needs to screen faster and harder and be quick to respond to red flags. This means that what she needs is not some kind of rehab or healing but more and more experience at eliminating assholes by gaining more knowledge on how to detect the signs of an asshole. And this doesn't need a healthy self or image but just raw experience and skill over time. 

That's what I'm doing right now. I'm upgrading my knowledge on narcissistic traits and asshole tactics. This way with more awareness and knowledge I'll be much better at screening such guys out early on. 

This doesn't happen with zero relationship experience. It only happens when you slowly start studying your relationship patterns and learn to fine tune it to find those who are attractive and screen out those who are also  attractive yet have subtle red flags. It's about practice and learning through constant practice. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

53 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Because desire is very strong and we only control it when we see a real downside in submitting to it. If we were to remove the toxicity, we would be more than willing to do what we are naturally drawn to. 

You're thinking that every toxic relationship is because of some kind of inner trauma. But how do you explain women who were wonderful, cheerful and happy and no idea what trauma is and still fell for assholes. What kind of healing should they look for when there is nothing to fix? 

The problem with your thinking is that it's very narrowly based in this thought that whatever happens to a person is always somehow connected to who they are, in your mind it just can't be otherwise. A person can still have a pattern of toxic relationships without anything being wrong with them. It's only plain coincidence that they are meeting good people or people they are not able to screen properly. This does not mean that there is something wrong with them or some inner trauma or self esteem issues, it just that they are meeting the wrong types and bad at judging people in general. 

You're completely forgetting that in each of these patterns there is a common trait a person is getting attracted to? Maybe each of the narcissists I met were nice and funny? Maybe they were incredibly handsome? You're only fixated on the negative aspects? How about the positive aspects? 

First of all, I understand that mistakes happen. You could be a healthy person and fall into an unhealthy circumstance. But trauma, especially childhood trauma, can make you more prone to unhealthy situations because that's what was modeled to you, that's what you're familiar with, and that's what you accept as normal. Of course trauma isn't the only thing at play. There is also general naivete and not knowing better. I just said trauma because it's super common.

Even with cheerful people who are functioning, you don't always know what's going on with their lives. Some people have a good facade. But if it's a recurring, you need to wonder what lesson you're not learning or what keeps falling under the radar. Lessons repeat themselves until they are learned. Sure the recurring positive aspects are fine if you want them to recur, but if there is something you don't want to repeat, you might want to look inwards and address that. It could be as simple as being more cognizant of red flags or be as deep as doing work in therapy. I know it's difficult to hear but in addition to the pattern, you are also one of the common denominators. That doesn't make it your fault or make you to blame but it does mean that you have some type of responsibility and control to take preventative measures. 

53 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is so wrong. Love bombing is a part of attraction. It creates good feelings. One doesn't need to be healthy to not fall for it or unhealthy to fall for it. 

Had I not met a narcissist, would I have said that love bombing is bad? Of course not. Because it's not bad. Things only become bad when they are associated with hazardous things. For example fast driving or junk food. The only reason why don't want fast driving or junk food is because we know that it's bad for your health or safety. But remove the bad hazards or bad effects, what happens then. The only reason we choose bland tasteless food is out of deliberate decision not out of desire. If accidents didn't happen, people would be more than thrilled to drive at the fastest speeds. If junk food didn't give us heart attacks, people would be flocking to restaurants to gulp large amounts of junk food. 

No doubt love bombing can seem very exciting. I can see why someone can fall for it. People love feeling desired and love the excitement of something new. But that doesn't mean love bombing in particular good or healthy. You can have something unravel slowly and naturally and still have it be passionate. But going from 0-100 real quick is horrible advice for both parties. It isn't ok to say I love you to someone you met 2 months ago. You can't love someone you barely even know. I have a friend who met a love bomber once. He wanted to talk to her for hours on the phone and take her out of the country for a trip within a month of knowing her. Lets just say that my friend's internal alarm bells started ringing and she got out of that situation real quick despite the fact she had no dating experience prior to this. Love bombing isn't on the same level as being really attractive. It isn't normal. It's a manipulation tactic that a lot of narcissists, possessive people, and insecure people use to lure someone in. 

 

Anna's relationship with Hans in Frozen is a good example of a manipulative and toxic relationship that started with love bombing. Anna was a cheerful girl but mistakes happen and she was naive because of her lack of exposure towards the outside world. Does that make Anna messed up in any way? No. But she still needed to learn that her relationship with Hans wasn't a good one. Hans appeared super charming and intelligent initially like most narcissists. In the movie I believe he tried to kill her and her sister to get the throne or something fucked up. This contrasts with her relationship with Kristoff which unveiled in a more natural pace where they got to know each other and dated for a little bit. And that development didn't make their relationship any less exciting or any more boring. Sometimes there is anticipation in waiting which breeds excitement and mystery. 

53 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Nothing wrong with her, she only needs to screen faster and harder and be quick to respond to red flags. This means that what she needs is not some kind of rehab or healing but more and more experience at eliminating assholes by gaining more knowledge on how to detect the signs of an asshole. And this doesn't need a healthy self or image but just raw experience and skill over time. 

That's what I'm doing right now. I'm upgrading my knowledge on narcissistic traits and asshole tactics. This way with more awareness and knowledge I'll be much better at screening such guys out early on. 

This doesn't happen with zero relationship experience. It only happens when you slowly start studying your relationship patterns and learn to fine tune it to find those who are attractive and screen out those who are also  attractive yet have subtle red flags. It's about practice and learning through constant practice. 

Sometimes things like this needs therapy and sometimes they just need a more watchful eye/ experience. I can't speak for all situations and people. Sometimes it's a self image thing, sometimes it's because they didn't know better. 

And I'm glad that you are upgrading your knowledge on narcissistic traits and asshole tactics. That shows that you are taking responsibility for that situation and I applaud you. It takes courage and awareness to seek out things like that instead of letting it perpetuate endlessly. Personally I wasn't born with this information either about love bombing. While I lack the personal dating experience, I did watch the situations my friends got into, read up on these types of things, and talked to people. That has to do with being naïve. But hey self image and trauma can play a role even though it isn't necessarily the case with every situation. I apologize if it came across as if I was saying it's a trauma only thing. Everyone and each situation is different so there is only so much I can say. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[soos_mite_ah]

Bottom Line for anyone who comes on this thread: ****Don't love bomb people****. There are plenty of ways to be attractive and court someone without taking things from 0-100. Love bombing can scare people away or lure in vulnerable naive people. Also don't prey on the vulnerable and naive. That's not having game, that's called taking advantage of someone psychologically. And if you encounter a love bomber, RUN!!!! It is a HUGE RED FLAG especially with narcissists. Unless you want to dress up like a red flag for a potential date, partner, or someone you want to have sex with don't love bomb them. 

Also this goes with out saying, don't stick your dick into crazy and don't let crazy stick their dick in you. It's an act of self love and safety to avoid people like this. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[No Self]

@soos_mite_ah There is a rare exception. It depends on the intention.

Love bombing is a tactic used by cults to recruit lonely and insecure people. Once they are locked in, they get treated like shit but are very unlikely to escape.

Love bombing can be used as a positive tactic when helping a frightened or neglected child (or animal) to rebuild trust. Obviously the intention is to then steer them towards healing.

Hence it is good or evil depending on the underlying intention. How this applies in a relationship setting I cannot say. But the less ego we have, the less there's a need to have some selfish motive to manipulate anyone.

[soos_mite_ah]

7 minutes ago, No Self said:

 

Love bombing can be used as a positive tactic when helping a frightened or neglected child (or animal) to rebuild trust. Obviously the intention is to then steer them towards healing.

That's really interesting I had no idea. I didn't know love bombing could be used in that way. Huh you learn something new each day. 

But I guess even that wouldn't hold up in the context of a romantic relationship. It isnt a good idea to start playing savior while dating. That would lead to a lot of codependency, not to mention a parent child dynamic. Either way, it isnt sexy.