How Leo's teachings can be detrimental to your Spiritual development

[Forestluv]

29 minutes ago, Scholar said:

For example, when I myself contemplate all of these questions, I would be far more humble and confused about everything I am saying. But if I were to present this energy of uncertainity within this community, it would feel to me like it would be received as a weakness. It would not be taken as seriously.

It seems like you are saying a certain amount of grounding is needed to articulate ideas.

For example, imagine I go into Genetics class and say "Today we will cover chromatin structure. Yet what is chromatin? It is physical? Energetic? An idea? Could chromatin just be a word? Yet what is a word? Is a word ink? Is it a sound? Is the form of word expression change it's meaning? And what does this have to do with chromatin? It has everything and nothing to do with chromatin because chromatin is both real and imagined. It is a construct in the mind to represent an entity. Yet that isn't true because there actually isn't a mind. But oh yes - there is also a mind, otherwise in what would the idea of chromatin appear? Yet is such a mind individual or collective? And what is the distinction between individual and collective - is it not any distinction arbitrary? And who would determine this distinction? Of course this question cannot be answered since there is no "who", there is only appearances that appear Here and Now. Yet in another dimension is there not a construct of time, since infinity must include all possibilities. And does that not mean that chromatin itself collapses into Oneness with all possibilities? . . . "

I could go on and on and on. And at the end of the day, I did not communicate anything about chromatin structure in this groundless, fluid mess of mystery. 

And each time a student asked a question, I could respond "Ah yes, that is both true / false / partially true / partially false depending on perspective. And each point I make about it's trueness / falseness / partially true-ness / partial false-ness is itself true / false / partially true / partially false. 

For me, I don't like being too grounded / structured, yet being too ungrounded / unstructured is also problematic. 

In the world in which I live, curiosity, mystery and ungroundedness has value, yet so does groundedness, certainty, focus and clarity. Sometimes assumptions and contractions are made as a sacrifice to articulate ideas. And each teacher has their own mix and style.  

I see teachers along spectrums and I see many different spectrums. There are spectrums of grounded/ungrounded, literal/metaphorical, logical/abstract, head-centered / heart-centered, intellect/feeling and on and on. And I think something is lost and gained with any style. 

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't know why you would not adopt a more sensitive approach to how you help people on their path.

I have given dozens of disclaimers and warnings. Sometimes devoting entire videos to it.

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Surely you do not want to just create an ideology.

I have talked ad nauseum about the dangers of ideology. More so than any other spiritual teacher. My work is more epistemological than any other spiritual teaching.

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You are an explorer who creates a map, you are not the guide who will follow along with someone who is passing through the terrain to help them get to the destination. There is nothing wrong with being the explorer who creates the map, but I think people would benefit if this was being made more clear.

I am both.

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I think one healthier option would be to give people the tools for them to determine where they are at and create content around those stages.

That is not my style.

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Whether you want it or not, many people here view whatever you say as absolute truth. If you never talked about love, and then suddenly talked about love, without anything changing in the experience of many of the people who follow you, they will immediately start talking about love and adopt it all as an ideology. This is very clear what you look at this forum.

Yes, but that cannot be helped. I am not going to not talk about Love simply because of fear someone will misunderstand me.

If people misunderstand me, that is not my problem. My communications are about as direct and clear as you will find in the spiritual world.

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To me it seems like you underestimate how difficult it is to make any true use of all the answers you are giving.

Which is why I say to use psychedelics. They are an easy solution to this problem.

I have done more than any other spiritual teacher to bring you the most direct tool for realizing that you are God.

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You yourself have a process and a mind that most people don't really ever see. They aren't conscious of the bulk of the work. They don't see the humble Leo who is questioning everything he is thinking. They just see the Leo who is spouting the truth with a confidence unmatched.

This is true for all the spiritual teachers you follow.

The average student has no idea the work that their favorite guru has done behind the scenes. The guru is just sitting there talking and making it sound easy.

When I tell people that enlightenment requires 1000+ hours of work, I get criticized for being too limiting and negative. I have never made this work sound easy like many teachers do. I call it work because it requires work. Those who don't do the work will not understand what I teach and that is not my problem because 90%+ of people who listen to me will not do any of the work. And I can't be bothered by that.

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This creates a dynamic in which people view you as the authority, instead of their own experience.

This is inevitable and I speak out against it all the time with dozens of warnings.

I have given plenty of warnings. If you can't understand them then this work is not for you.

I am not going to dumb my work down just because your mind gets easily lost in concepts.

[Scholar]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have given dozens of disclaimers and warnings. Sometimes devoting entire videos to it.

I have talked ad nauseum about the dangers of ideology. More so than any other spiritual teacher. My work is more epistemological than any other spiritual teaching.

I am both.

That is not my style.

Yes, but that cannot be helped. I am not going to not talk about Love simply because of fear someone will misunderstand me.

If people misunderstand me, that is not my problem. My communications are about as direct and clear as you will find in the spiritual world.

Which is why I say to use psychedelics. They are an easy solution to this problem.

I have done more than any other spiritual teacher to bring you the most direct tool for realizing that you are God.

This is true for all the spiritual teachers you follow.

The average student has no idea the work that their favorite guru has done behind the scenes. The guru is just sitting there talking and making it sound easy.

When I tell people that enlightenment requires 1000+ hours of work, I get criticized for being too limiting and negative. I have never made this work sound easy like many teachers do. I call it work because it requires work. Those who don't do the work will not understand what I teach and that is not my problem because 90%+ of people who listen to me will not do any of the work. And I can't be bothered by that.

This is inevitable and I speak out against it all the time with dozens of warnings.

I have given plenty of warnings. If you can't understand them then this work is not for you.

I am not going to dumb my work down just because your mind gets easily lost in concepts.

I feel like you are not receptive to the improvements I am suggesting. I don't want you to stop talking about the truth, i am only pointing to areas in which I believe sensitivities could be helpful for those on the path.

I don't think it's reasonable to have an entire style based around a persona that is very certain, some might even say arrogant, authortative, belittleling of other perspectives, and then expect those who listen to a persona like that to come away without any of these qualities, or to incorporate the ideas that are presented in an unhealthy manner. I don't think you can wave all of that away because you made some disclaimers.

Sure you can just keep saying that it is your style and you will not compromise, but as I said I view this as insensitive. And I think it will attract and maybe even created the kind of minds that you then will have to ban for various reasons. I think this is a lack of responsibility, a responsibility that if you adopted I think would only improve your content.

 

Initially this wasn't even supposed to be a critique of you Leo, but rather a reminder and help for this community. If everyone were able to responsibly watch these videos while upholding their sense of mystery, I would have no issue with it. But this is not the world we live in.

 

And I disagree that it is true for most of the teachers out there. There is a certain embodiment that I think you lack. I think you have been teaching all of this while you were a student of the very subjects you were teaching. I think this kind of position of having to uphold the seeker persona and the teacher persona is a challenge, because you have to reflect your teachings confidently, but especially as a seeker it puts you into a vulnerable position where you have to justify yourself.

 

When I watch WIlber for example I get a very different kind of energy, and I think it might be because of his in-person teaching experiences. I think this whole "Talking to a camera" and this forum thing creates a disconnect for you which makes it more difficult for you to intuitively develope the kind of sensitivities I speak of.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Scholar

[knakoo]

Very interesting conversation. Really some smart people on this forum !

Can someone give me an exemple of Leo ever saying something like "thank you for the feedback, those are good points", or even better any comment suggesting that he is influenced in his views by the the feedback he is getting ? I am genially curious. 

I remember his message reconsidering his dating application thing, which I appreciated. Anything deeper than that ?

I guess I am only seeing Leo the very confident (kind of arrogant) teacher, would like to see more of Leo the humble seeker.

[TrustTheProcess]

If Leo's style doesn't resonate with you, you don't gotta watch. 

You def gotta have a certain personality/brain type to appreciate his material.

[lmfao]

@Scholar go zen mode, habibi. I haven't watched any of Leo's videos for a while, go on your own path. 

[eggopm3]

Leo's teachings made me take spirituality far more seriously than I had before. Learning this material had only deepened the mystery for me.

[SamueLSD]

12 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I find it curious that a mind would choose the least curious/mysterious option (#3) and utilize a known non-mysterious mechanism to describe how another mind is deterring from curiosity and mystery. To me, the OPs essay itself lacks curiosity/unknown/mystery. The OP seems to know exactly what is happening and sees no mystery in what it assumes is happening. There doesn't seem to be any curiosity. 

What I was trying to say, but you said it better lol

[SamueLSD]

3 hours ago, knakoo said:

Can someone give me an exemple of Leo ever saying something like "thank you for the feedback, those are good points", or even better any comment suggesting that he is influenced in his views by the the feedback he is getting ? I am genially curious.

He has admitted things he has been wrong about on his blog posts, not really feedback but nonetheless.  https://www.actualized.org/insights/things-ive-been-wrong-about 

[SamueLSD]

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

Initially this wasn't even supposed to be a critique of you Leo, but rather a reminder and help for this community. 

Well a more relevant title could've been: "How you can misinterpret advanced teachings", or "How we unconsciously take concepts as belief", as this problem exists everywhere, not just here.

It shapes the kind of responses you are going to get.

Respect for pointing the issue out though, it should be talked about more.

[Consilience]

In my own experience, it was Leo’s no non-sense, mega intellectual and direct style that cracked through my mind. I needed a teacher like that to break through my skepticism, but on an intellectual level most teachers cannot compete with. Now days I consume significantly less of his content. The majority of the work has shifted from theory to practice, yet the first year of finding Leo it was reverse. Much more theory than practice.

I think we, as the seeker, have to know when to put down the study and pick up the practice. Like seriously commit to practice. If you truly studied actualized.org teachings you’d eventually recognize the call to commit to this action oriented approach, rather than the intellectual consumption that likely attracted you to a teacher like Leo. 

It’s easy to criticize Leo’s approach. In a way I agree, there are dangers with how easy it would be to turn all of this into ideology, yet if you honestly commit to the principles Leo’s outlined, you’ll be okay. Again, Leo’s style is exactly what some people need, like myself, to break out of the trappings of their own mind; without actualized.org who the hell knows where Id be. Forever grateful some balled dude on YouTube out Philosophized my rather arrogant younger self. 

 

[Moksha]

Leo has admitted that he was wrong. I remember reading a post from around August where he did this.

Different teachers for different students. I personally do not find conceptual teaching to be very transformative, but I know many here do, and am happy that Leo's teachings resonate with them.

[Kalki Avatar]

Leo's wisdom was a most to me in balancing out maya with reality. Understanding my psychology and bullshit while aiming to the ultimate. 

But at the end of the day, I wonder when is he going to embody all he teaches and become the super human we all want for ourselves. 

Leo has the knowledge. Imagine if he added permanent enligthenment. He would easily make the world fall in love with "him". 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Kalki Avatar

[Scholar]

14 hours ago, louhad said:

If Leo's style doesn't resonate with you, you don't gotta watch. 

You def gotta have a certain personality/brain type to appreciate his material.

I am simply making people aware of this problem, as it is something that can easily be overlooked even if you think you are aware of it.

11 hours ago, eggopm3 said:

Leo's teachings made me take spirituality far more seriously than I had before. Learning this material had only deepened the mystery for me.

Same, but this isn't about the validity of Leo's teachings, this is about a particular pitfall that I can observe in this forum and that I have in the past observed in myself.

10 hours ago, Consilience said:

In a way I agree, there are dangers with how easy it would be to turn all of this into ideology, yet if you honestly commit to the principles Leo’s outlined, you’ll be okay

And I am here to help some of you to be more aware of committing to Leo's principles, one of them being to focus your energies on questions not answers.

 

Just because you suggest improvements or raise awareness of certain issues doesn't mean you are dismissing literally all of that which you are criticizing. I feel like many of you are being overly defensive.

[Moksha]

28 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Same, but this isn't about the validity of Leo's teachings, this is about a particular pitfall that I can observe in this forum and that I have in the past observed in myself.

My personal yardstick is not what I know, but the degree to which what I have realized, has reified as less suffering and more love. Proof is in the spiritual pudding.

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, neutralempty said:

@Scholar

I would appreciate an example, so far Leo didn't strike me as arrogant, tbh. 

He kind of has this toxic american culture attitude but I think he can set it aside and see past that when necessary.

But maybe the disagrement is then on the limit of necessity.

And maybe this attitude is necessary given the type of people that you have to face when releasing these insights on yt. Maybe it's beneficial to spread his insights across to be able to battle some autistic materialists and catch their attention via triggering.

I don't think Leo is arrogant per se, but his entire style has that kind of vibe which many people would perceive this way.

 

Watch the latest Connor Murphy video, he basically adopted his style.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I am simply making people aware of this problem, as it is something that can easily be overlooked even if you think you are aware of it.

this is about a particular pitfall that I can observe in this forum

 

41 minutes ago, Scholar said:

but his entire style has that kind of vibe which many people would perceive this way.

Watch the latest Connor Murphy video, he basically adopted his style.

It’s fascinating to observe the structure of problem creation at the individual level and the extrapolation of problem creation to the collective level.

Key components for grounding include assumptions, dismissal of relativity, normalization, steering and sowing seeds.

Students regularly do this in my college courses for a variety of reasons. It’s interesting to see similar dynamics in spiritual communities. 

[Scholar]

30 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

 

It’s fascinating to observe the structure of problem creation at the individual level and the extrapolation of problem creation to the collective level.

Key components for grounding include assumptions, dismissal of relativity, normalization, steering and sowing seeds.

Students regularly do this in my college courses for a variety of reasons. It’s interesting to see similar dynamics in spiritual communities. 

It is also fascinating to see how a teacher can focus solely on the students and not turn the same helpful analysis to one of his fellow teachers.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, neutralempty said:

@Scholar

The one where he's critizing Psychiatry?

The one about world domination, however you could see some of it in his previous videos.

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It is also fascinating to see how a teacher can focus solely on the students and not turn the same helpful analysis to one of his fellow teachers.

That is from the perspective of a mind that wants to create and maintain the problem creation. That mindset doesn’t like light being shined on the process.

I’m not saying that there isn’t some truth within the content. Yet that  is a distraction from observing the structure of mind.

To understand thyself and the mind, one needs to observe framing construction. And it can be very subtle and sneaky. For example, notice the framing of me as a “teacher unwilling to helpfully analyze a fellow teacher”. That is true within the context of the story, yet is also a distraction from observing at a meta level, since it protects the story keeps and keeps the mind engaged and immersed within the story.

The thread you created declares importance of curiosity in spiritual development. Get curious and observe the mind from a higher meta view. You could be example Here and Now about how curiosity of one’s own mind promotes awakening and spiritual development. You could demonstrate curiosity, not knowing and mystery within this story you create. Be the change you want to see. And that starts with our own mind. 

Regarding the content of the story in terms of teaching styles, there are very different ways you could present it. You are choosing a particular framing that has strong personal elements and is partial. Yet there is some truth within it.