"Stop the EU migration pact, save EUROPE"

[Claymoree]

On 01/12/2020 at 10:02 AM, datamonster said:

Immigration also has a positive impact on real estate prices. So, if you're a filthy rich European who owns real estate, good for you, you should support it, too

.

What is positive about it?

What about all the youth who can't buy property and renting prices are so high they have to give half or more of their salary for it, should they applaud too?

14 hours ago, Fadl said:

All nationalists are inherently stupid (no exceptions), this earth is for everybody, whether they liked it or not. 

Inherently nations build their infrastructure, like it or not, without nationalists none of countries would survive this long, only now we are reaching point where nationalism will not be really needed anymore, but common sense is,

On 30/11/2020 at 6:58 PM, mmKay said:

https://www.saveurope.eu/

Pretty straightforward. Thoughts? 

Immigration has made life standards worse for everyone, only lunatic would say that it is not true, but it is right direction to take, what we need are people in power who see it, but have enough brain cells to see that there are lot of problems to deal with. 

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, datamonster said:

But those who do recognize it, have real estate and good qualifications benefit from it.

so mostly the rich or upper class? so the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, sounds like a recipe for things turning very sour and the lower class turning against refugees and immigrants.

sprinkle in some propaganda, foreign interference, populists like marine le pen gaining traction winning elections and then good bye e.u. which i really don't hope will happen.

[Claymoree]

3 minutes ago, datamonster said:

It sucks of course if you don't recognize these trends and have no valuable skills to offer that would pay enough so that rent isn't such a big expense in your budget.

You mean most of population.

Immigration does not just increase property prices , it also drives down salary for most of the jobs,

7 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Also think about it this way, immigrantion can drive up rents and house prices a little bit and maybe for you it means paying 40% instead of 30% of your income on rent, but for some immigrant being able to live in your country can mean their entire livelihood. 

 Good for them, but going in direction of making most of population living in bases of paycheck to paycheck is not something to strive for. 

[PurpleTree]

20 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Not just rich people have real estate. Generally speaking, the more affluent a country is the more people tend to rent.

Because home ownership is so expensive in these affluent countries. Otherwise people would want to own property, right?

So it's really mostly the rich and upper class who can afford home ownership in these affluent countries or districts.

[Preety_India]

People act like immigrants don't pay taxes. Actually immigrants do pay taxes, work jobs, raise families and try to integrate as much into the local work culture. 

Yet they get discriminated against and exploited, often being paid very low wages, unable to buy homes because of discrimination, even if they have the money to buy those homes, their lives are difficult, yet they strive to succeed in the native population, this whole idea that immigrants become a burden is only a half baked lie, only some immigrants commit crimes depending on their socioeconomic conditions and upbringing, yet if you look at Jewish immigrants in America, they are the driving force of the economy. 

This whole immigration debate is not really necessary because immigrants already do their best to assimilate. 

It's only the insecurities of the natives that make them look at immigrants suspiciously, good old xenophobia 

 

 

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, datamonster said:

No. Renting is the luxury not home ownership.

In affluent countries people are able to move to wherever they desire to live and where they can find good jobs.

i live in an "affluent" area and many more people would like to own but it's just too expensive.

19 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

People act like immigrants don't pay taxes.

Some do and some don't. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Preety_India]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

 

Some do and some don't. 

This applies even to natives. Some do and some don't. 

Look at Trump. Hardly paid any taxes, in fact teachers and nurses paid more than him. 

The whole tax debate is ridiculous because it's the uber rich that get sweetheart deals and escape the tax trap by lobbying the government. 

Most poor people which includes immigrants pay taxes. 

The locus of focus should be elsewhere, immigrants are just a distraction. 

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This applies even to natives. Some do and some don't. 

Look at Trump. Hardly paid any taxes, in fact teachers and nurses paid more than him. 

The whole tax debate is ridiculous because it's the uber rich that get sweetheart deals and escape the tax trap by lobbying the government. 

Most poor people which includes immigrants pay taxes. 

The locus of focus should be elsewhere, immigrants are just a distraction. 

some immigrants and refugees want to work and pay taxes some don't

some immigrants and refugees are extremely hard workers and some aren't

some immigrants and refugees want to build a great life and study some don't

some immigrants or refugees are very open to womens rights gay rights etc. some aren't

some immigrants just want to collect well fare and have children some don't

some immigrants and refugees are criminals some aren't

 

there are also deeper issues a lot of the refugees come from war torn, very religious etc. places so it's understandable that they have a different mentality.

I've worked with refugees and i know others who did too, every individual is different of course.

 

yea this applies to natives too but i don't think europe can try and save the whole world, we have enough poor people and problems (backwardness, poverty etc.) of our own, have you ever lived in europe? do you want right wing populists in europe to take over?

 

blanket statements like "immigrants pay taxes" aren't really true or cutting it imo, it's complex

[Preety_India]

@PurpleTree yea but immigrants are not responsible for the populist mentality. This is like saying elephants are responsible for poaching. No. It's the poachers who are responsible. Populists are just coming out of the woodwork. For society to progress and evolve it has to go through the Clash of Values. What you’re witnessing now is the evolution of Europe, during this process there will be pains and struggles and blame games. 

 

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@PurpleTree What you’re witnessing now is the evolution of Europe, during this process there will be pains and struggles and blame games. 

 

Yea or the EU/Europe will just collapse like most empires in history

Or it will become crap for most people living here

Or it will become a utopia, we don't know what's going to happen

1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

Human rights concern are obviously a necessary canvas of analysis. It's tempting to turn a blind eye on the negative aspects caused by uncontrolled waves of immigrations in the name of the heart, but one has to watch out for the maintain and preservation of a general equilibrium.

There is only a certain amount of immigration that can be absorbed by a society until it reaches a critical spot. Europe ranges from Blue to Green so you've got to factor in the political conflicts that are going to arise, which are only exacerbated by the social and economical crisis and the culture wars in this very current context.

I wish the subject of immigration would be more widely spoken about by political parties of all the spectrum and not left to the extremes. This is a huge mistake. The debate is absolutely necessary and so is the need to de-framing it from xenophobic talks. We need this subject to be seriously addressed and contemplated in its full complexity, with a short, middle and long term plan.

This would suppose investing in strategic foreign development policies, fair trade programs, prosecuting abusive corporations, addressing global warming, conflict prevention, etc, in order to slow down the phenomena by diminishing the need for leaving your birth country in the first place. 

Ideally, immigration should be a choice, not the only prospect to a better life because you get to finally enter a zone where your humanity is finally covered with some protection.

Overall, I really much agree with @Eph75 analysis.

Love it and agreed

[Preety_India]

@PurpleTree @PurpleTree  lol you're being so negative about immigrants as though they pests or destroyers or something. Calm down. Nothing is happening to your so called empires. 

If western civilization ever comes down it will be because of western people but I understand the need to place all the blame on immigrants for all the problems when immigrants hardly make 1% of the whole population. 

Thinking that Europe will collapse because of some poor immigrants represents a huge amount of paranoia and too much of a stretch. 

Western civilizations and countries are declining in growth mostly for their own reasons and internal conflicts and degradation and nothing to do with immigrants. 

Mark my words. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Preety_India

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@PurpleTree @PurpleTree  lol you're being so negative about immigrants as though they pests or destroyers or something. Calm down.  

I'm not negative about it, i'm realistic about it. 

i have many immigrant friends etc. i see the good and the bad, you seem to only see the good, which is delusional

Also i didn't call it an empire i just made a connection

also Etherial Cat is much better at formulating these points than me so maybe you could address her arguments  

Edited December 2, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Preety_India]

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I'm not negative about it, i'm realistic about it. 

i have many immigrant friends etc. i see the good and the bad, you seem to only see the good, which is delusional

Also i didn't call it an empire i just made a connection

also Etherial Cat is much better at formulating these points than me so maybe you could address her arguments  

No you're negative about it. Etherial Cat talks about discussion and I understand the objective of discussion, that is completely okay, but you make it sound like immigrants are going to bring disaster to Europe. Try being in their shoes. It's not a good look. Also understand that when people say immigrants are criminals, that's because they've been parched and starved by a system that allows them in and strips them to poverty, they are paid the lowest wages, exploited and enslaved for their labor and when they turn against , they are blamed for it. 

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

No you're negative about it. Etherial Cat talks about discussion and I understand the objective of discussion, that is completely okay, but you make it sound like immigrants are going to bring disaster to Europe. Try being in their shoes. It's not a good look. Also understand that when people say immigrants are criminals, that's because they've been parched and starved by a system that allows them in and strips them to poverty, they are paid the lowest wages, exploited and enslaved for their labor and when they turn against , they are blamed for it. 

yea that's just not true sorrys

 

 

[Bojan V]

@PurpleTree There are to many heteros already. See how egotistical that is?

[Eph75]

@Preety_India Notice how you are reading into things based on your biases and how that disrupts and direct away from a deeper discussion emerging, which incidentally is what I was pointing to earlier, the post-modern paradox.

These discussions much too often gets shut down, just like this, on these kind of premises; people looking to hear that immigrants are e.g. associated with being criminals, wanting to make the percieved opposition out to be e.g. racist, xenophobic and against immigration by emphasizing such connections, when the need is a discussion around such as, but not limited to, that immigrants are highly over-represented in [more] serious crime (based on readily available statistical data) and how to find a way to change this. 

Notice that this does not mean that immigrants are criminals but rather that a lot of such crime is committed by immigrants. This is nowhere a racist claim, nor is it a right-wing expression. These connection are biased, even though such claims may be, and are, emphasize by right-wing people, they still are not right-wing claims. 

The result is that crucial discussions that are so deeply need cannot happen and the discussion gets diverted away from the issue(s) at hand and into grid-lock situations.

By leaning into the discussion and helping it forward by adding perspective, and gaining perspective, and through healthy discussion and collaboration, allows for getting at the core of problem(s). 

In this post-modern paradox where the post-modernists defence of the immigrants, based on ethnocentric values, the contradiction lies in the inability to facilitate and help that very discussions to happen, by appearing to be the protectors of values and expressions of people, yet only accepting the importance of values and expression of one group [immigrants] while cancelling/negating the importance of values and expression of another group [priviledged white people]. 

The effective result is that the problems keep growing which leads to increased friction within the system, and thus leads to increasing intolerance towards the phenomenon. The immigrants become the victims in this equation, while the critique is mainly against our own system and our inabilities. 

There is a sense of there being a need and expectation not to meet the opposition in discussion and collaboration, in such sense that it would be equivalent to agreeing to and adopting the perspectives, or part of the perspectives that the opposition hold.

Stretching oneself into constructive conversations around difficult topics will allow post-modernism Green to stretch towards growing towards and into Yellow, overcoming the unhealthy expression that prevents that development from happening.

The best we, all of us, can do is to promote the introduction of such discussions and put collaboration into focus, and also actively help shifting people towards having outcome-oriented mindset where the focus is positive-action-orientation rather than focused on the differences in opinion that we hold.

We need such Yellow catalyzers to help facilitate these discussions and add the guidence that is needed, so that the negative side-effects from a Green-Orange or Green-Blue clash is minimized and positive outcomes can be maximize through actionability that addressesdifficult problems and the challenges in order to impact those at the core. 

Food for thought - how can you help; help yourself to help that discussion to become productive?

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Eph75

[Preety_India]

@Eph75 if you see biases in my thought then those who are skeptical about immigrants are equally biased if not more. 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Preety_India

[Eph75]

@Preety_India

Drumroll..

We're all biased, based on our value system, which is greatly dictated by our level of development, which is dictating what we are able to percieve, which is dictating the range of action that are available to us and which we sensibly can pursue. 

This is irrelevant from an outcome driven perspective, which is about making a dent in that which is percieved as a problem. The more meta, structural and systemic level this can be effectively addressed at, the greater impact and change potential there is. 

The more gridlocks are created around difference focus, the more content fixation is being exercised and the lesser or no impact is made. Potential is negligable and time is wasted as the problems are allowed to  grow in the meantime. 

Effectively more harm is likely to be added to the system than good. 

But it's not really about exercising value systemic dogma in an ideological way judging whose perspective is right(er), i.e. always "mine" and whose is wrong(er), i.e. always "yours". You will always see the other as "more biased" and you will always see yourself as "more objective". This is the essence of self-deception. 

Is there a problem? Yes, what that problem is, that is what needs to be explored. It can be readily available, such as mentioned crime and we all want less crime, but it could be hidden in forms of unmet needs, e.g. as fear of culture as we know it changing over time, fear of change, fear of losing something or fear of becoming more of that which the immigrants are trying to escape from. The way forward is to better understand the problem in a less biased, more subjectively objective way, so that effective actions can work the problems.

Does it feel bad or wrong to accept that you, just as everyone else, are biased?

Gaining greater awareness of ones own biases allows for navigating self, so that we better can navigate others, into helping themselves navigate their own biases.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Eph75

[Yog]

I mean even part of the far right in Europe is not against immigration, that is not the problem most people have with it.

What most are against is :

-Mass immigration.
-Illegal/uncontrolled immigration.
-Confusing migrants with refugees.
-Migrants/Refugees refusing to integrate.
-Incomparable values resulting in social unrest.
-Ideological politicians acting as if nothing is going on.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Yog
typo

[Preety_India]

@Yog  it has nothing to do with mass immigration, legal immigration refugees, or integration. It's all about ethnonationalism. Watch Carl Benjamin discussion with Vaush 

Vaush exposes right wing motives.