Epistemology of psychedelics

[Psychedelic seeker]

How can you distinguish whether you had a mystical experience on N,N-DMT or you just delude yourself because you often listen to Leo concepts and falsely interpret every N,N-DMT experience as some kind of higher truth?

[vibv]

Did you have a powerful psychedelic experience yet? Do you think that was completely illusory? 

[Carl-Richard]

What is a mystical experience?

[Adamq8]

An insight is an insight. 

When certain insight hits you it is out of the blue and hits you like a train and you end up with existential crisis.

Atleast in my own experience. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Psychedelic seeker You are putting the cart before the horse.

Do it first. Then ask your questions, if they still make sense.

[mandyjw]

Spontaneous mystical experiences are very frequently misinterpreted too. So is all experience, even mundane everyday experience. We interpret all experience through a filter. A filter is fundamental to having any experience in the first place. What is prior to any experience? 

[Blackhawk]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Spontaneous mystical experiences are very frequently misinterpreted too. So is all experience, even mundane everyday experience. We interpret all experience through a filter. A filter is fundamental to having any experience in the first place. What is prior to any experience? 

Consciousness.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Blackhawk

[Nahm]

There are words like mystical experience, synchronicity, homeostasis, etc which seem to

[Girzo]

It's very possible to delude yourself that you have experienced what Enlightenment is on a mild dose of a psychedelic. But don't worry, after finally hitting a proper breakthrough you will auto-correct your opinions, it will put every experience into perspective.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Girzo

[Psychedelic seeker]

On 30.11.2020 at 10:11 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Psychedelic seeker You are putting the cart before the horse.

Do it first. Then ask your questions, if they still make sense.

I have done many psychedelics many times (about 20 N,N-DMT trips included). I just don't want to delude myself... Leo, you yourself told in one of your episodes that you must be very careful about deluding yourself when it comes to doing psychedelics! I am a sceptic AF as you recommend to be - I question everything!

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Psychedelic seeker said:

I am a sceptic AF as you recommend to be - I question everything!

Then doubt your own skepticism.

[Rilles]

NN Dmt is not the same as 5-Meo. People can do NN without experiencing God. 

[vibv]

18 minutes ago, Rilles said:

NN Dmt is not the same as 5-Meo. People can do NN without experiencing God. 

A Psychedelic is not something that gives you a specific experience. The experience is in the eye of the beholder and not in the substance. By that I mean: You give a substance into your biochemical system which has a very complex interaction with that, what is already there.
That means: One person can have a profound spiritual experience on a psychedelic, while another one stays in his/her closed-minded state. You can not separate the substance and the user! Only then it would be possible, that the substance alone is responsible for the effect.

Another point of view is of course: You invented it all! You invented a way of experiencing a radical different perspective, which is accessible without decades of meditation, and you called it Psychedelics. That means you also create the effects yourself every time you take one.
Which makes it even more true, that YOU (on a certain level, which you may or may not be conscious of) decide what happens when you take a substance, and what doesn't.

[Psychedelic seeker]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Then doubt your own skepticism.

Yep! Exactly!

[Psychedelic seeker]

2 hours ago, Rilles said:

NN Dmt is not the same as 5-Meo. People can do NN without experiencing God. 

I know. I will certainly do 5-MeO one day.

[Brandon Nankivell]

On 30/11/2020 at 7:41 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Psychedelic seeker You are putting the cart before the horse.

Do it first. Then ask your questions, if they still make sense.

@Leo GuraRecently I've been speaking with an enthusiastic materialist and rationalist.

What would your response be if they say: "Why would I ingest DMT if there isn't evidence of a repeatable experiment with a clear outcome and time-frame in which the outcome can be attained? This is not rational! This is NONSENSE! I am opening myself up to my mind being manipulated!"

[Carl-Richard]

@Brandon Nankivell

Holy grave digging. Please make your own thread next time. Now people will respond to people who will never respond back.

 

20 hours ago, Brandon Nankivell said:

"Why would I ingest DMT if there isn't evidence of a repeatable experiment with a clear outcome and time-frame in which the outcome can be attained? This is not rational! This is NONSENSE! I am opening myself up to my mind being manipulated!"

Did he actually say that? It seems like word salad. What outcome is he talking about? Is he concerned about the DMT experience being different for everyone? That's life.

[Danioover9000]

@Brandon Nankivell

20 hours ago, Brandon Nankivell said:

@Leo GuraRecently I've been speaking with an enthusiastic materialist and rationalist.

What would your response be if they say: "Why would I ingest DMT if there isn't evidence of a repeatable experiment with a clear outcome and time-frame in which the outcome can be attained? This is not rational! This is NONSENSE! I am opening myself up to my mind being manipulated!"

   Is he Sam Harris?

   I think a reasonable reply, while remaining respectable and open minded and cool:

   The same reason why you'll eat breakfast, and eggs, even if there's lack of explicit evidence for a repeatable experiment with a clear outcome and time frame to the decimal for optimal outcome. How the eggs, black puddings, tomatoes, bacons, hashbrowns, beans, mushrooms, and toast is cooked, what temperatures, what timing, techniques, and many other varieties and variables will still vary your breakfast experience. Even if it's noticeable the same,that does not mean the chief has exactly cooked it to exact timing and temperature and amount of spices. What if you find out your breakfast was minus 1 degrees than usual, 20 grams of salt less, and some of the food items slightly charred? Would you throw up your meal, or continue the day and let your bodu convert that food into useable energy for the day? What is commonsense to do?

   I would posit that, as bad as the word faith is here for you Mr. Skeptical, you need more faith in the experience of the DMT, read the trip reports, take responsibility for the trip safety, and treat it like how you treat breakfast in the morning, don't expect exact results, enjoy possible variations.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Brandon Nankivell]

On 11/09/2023 at 10:29 AM, Carl-Richard said:

@Brandon Nankivell

Holy grave digging. Please make your own thread next time. Now people will respond to people who will never respond back.

 

Did he actually say that? It seems like word salad. What outcome is he talking about? Is he concerned about the DMT experience being different for everyone? That's life.

In spite of seeing the message to consider creating a new thread, I never considered this.

Now I know, thank you!

[Brandon Nankivell]

@Danioover9000 He respects Sam Hariss and is somewhat in tune although doesn't agree on everything. I'll see how the eggs on toast response goes!