Don Beck = Trump supporter ?

[Girzo]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Clare Graves identified himself at stage Blue.

That's surprising, didn't know that. It makes the fact that they have developed this theory even more impressive. Like how did they come up with the insights?

At the University, I have personally experienced stage Blue/Orange people being knowledgable about systems thinking, etc., but themselves thinking linearly, without depth. But lecturers at college are not the ones who come up with these ideas, they are just repeating them, while Don Beck has actually developed SD.

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a serious lack of people who understand consciousness, spirituality, politics, culture, and economics all at once.

Lately, I have stumbled upon and been reading books with titles like "Sacred Economics" and "Organic Marxism", but those multidisciplinary mixed books are weak sauce, it's better to read works of experts in a single field IMO. Just a side remark.

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Just read this post where he's raging against Ken Wilber and accusing him of being First Tier lol. https://openintegral.wordpress.com/2015/12/14/don-beck-on-ken-wilber/

Yes, I've seen it before. This happens because Beck doesn't understand the mysticism which grounds Ken's work.

Ken understands the limits of Spiral Dynamics and sought ways to expand upon it. But of course Beck takes this personally because he's devoted his entire life to just Spiral Dynamics. Which is precisely the problem with narrow-minded academia and science. It's too myopic and lost in its models.

Beck did some great work, but it is limited and now it's time to go way beyond it. This is the nature of all scientific work. It's only good until you outgrow it. Then it becomes your prison cell.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura Wouldn't Stage Blue limit Beck's ability to develop such a model?

[Girzo]

7 minutes ago, Yali said:

Wouldn't Stage Blue limit Beck's ability to develop such a model?

When I now think about it, lack of personal experience of a stage could hurt your understanding of it. But on the other hand would a stage Yellow or Turquoise be better at describing other stages? I think not that much, because nowadays we spend very little time in stages Purple or Red for example, so we all lack deep personal experience of some stages. It seems what matters the most in that kind of work is good technical reasearch and interviewing skills.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Girzo

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

@Leo Gura aside from an overestimation of Green's malignancy, what other ways do you see Ken Wilber's theorising as being limited?

[Leo Gura]

54 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura Wouldn't Stage Blue limit Beck's ability to develop such a model?

He's not strictly Blue. He has higher capacities as well.

46 minutes ago, Skin-encapsulatedego said:

@Leo Gura aside from an overestimation of Green's malignancy, what other ways do you see Ken Wilber's theorising as being limited?

I think what's really missed by most thinkers is the depth of the economic restructuring that's necessary for a truly stage Green society.

They just pretend like neoliberalism is fine. They ignore the deep systemic problems of capitalism which are not being addressed. It's like they think we can have a stage Orange economic system while we skip over Green and move on to Yellow culturally. We'll that's not gonna fly.

We need a much more democratic economic system. But this entire point is being obscured by the culture wars. Forget about the culture wars. The real question is: How do we move the economy from Orange to Green? How do we transition the majority of business practices on this planet from Orange to Green? This is what Wilber and the rest are not seriously thinking about. Orange economics and business is not sustainable.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura We both know that Beck is Yellow/Turquoise (second tier). Anyone under that stage couldn’t have written so much about spiral dynamics.

[Willie]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He's not strictly Blue. He has higher capacities as well.

I think what's really missed by most thinkers is the depth of the economic restructuring that's necessary for a truly stage Green society.

They just pretend like neoliberalism is fine. They ignore the deep systemic problems of capitalism which are not being addressed. It's like they think we can have a stage Orange economic system while we skip over Green and move on to Yellow culturally. We'll that's not gonna fly.

We need a much more democratic economic system. But this entire point is being obscured by the culture wars. Forget about the culture wars. The real question is: How do we move the economy from Orange to Green? How do we transition the majority of business practices on this planet from Orange to Green? This is what Wilber and the rest are not seriously thinking about. Orange economics and business is not sustainable.

The culture wars are exactly why we aren’t ready to have that conversation yet. Gotta have more people such as yourself educating the masses in a way that isn’t stuck in academic theory. We need the equivalent of a Bill Nye for economics.

[AtheisticNonduality]

21 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura We both know that Beck is Yellow/Turquoise (second tier). Anyone under that stage couldn’t have written so much about spiral dynamics.

But Jordan Peterson wrote a lot about addiction recovery and shadow work and he was an absolute failure at addiction recovery and shadow work.

[Danioover9000]

@Forestluv

8 hours ago, Forestluv said:

   It does seem like the more a person ages, the more close minded they tend to get, and the more tighter the attachments become.

[Forestluv]

48 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Forestluv

   It does seem like the more a person ages, the more close minded they tend to get, and the more tighter the attachments become.

Yep. It's easy for the mind and body to become rigid as it ages. Staying flexible can take effort. 

[Apparition of Jack]

1 hour ago, Willie said:

The culture wars are exactly why we aren’t ready to have that conversation yet. Gotta have more people such as yourself educating the masses in a way that isn’t stuck in academic theory. We need the equivalent of a Bill Nye for economics.

Robert Reich and Richard Wolff are both good at explaining Stage Green economics in simple terms, but because they’re associated with the left a lot of conservatives might simply refuse to listen to them. Who knows though.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura We both know that Beck is Yellow/Turquoise (second tier). Anyone under that stage couldn’t have written so much about spiral dynamics.

We don't know that. Writing stuff ain't the same as embodiment.

Beck holds some foolish ideas and his critiques of Wilber are downright delusional.

2 hours ago, Willie said:

The culture wars are exactly why we aren’t ready to have that conversation yet.

The culture wars are an artificial construct which we can stop perpetuating.

[Hello from Russia]

16 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Don Beck sees himself as Second Tier even though he doesn't understand Turquoise or Yellow at all. Not even Green. Hell, the original Spiral Dynamics book was basically marketed as a Stage Orange capitalist entrepreneurial people skills book. Just read this post where he's raging against Ken Wilber and accusing him of being First Tier lol. https://openintegral.wordpress.com/2015/12/14/don-beck-on-ken-wilber/

Lol

[Username]

On 30/11/2020 at 10:17 AM, Leo Gura said:

Even people like Ken Wilber misapply SD and misunderstand stage Green. When it comes to Green economics, virtually no Boomer gets it. It's like they are blinded by a lifetime of neoliberal propaganda from which they have benefited.

My impression is that Yellow often dislike Green because they have somewhat dumb ideas (mostly due to lack of understanding of feedback loops and homeostasis) and see green as unnecessary step from orange to yellow. Green is less pragmatic and not shortsighted as Orange. Green often see a problem, but solution is too simplistic and it's not going to work. Green doesn't see new problems created by the solution instantly - Yellow does. Green will autocorrect itself but it needs some time. Orange on the other hand is shortsighted and pragmatic. Because of that Orange is less prone to do "obvious" mistakes.

Lets give an example. There are two candidates, Yellow person has to choose between them:

- Green see that there is some kind of problem and offers solution. Solution isn't well thought out and it will create many new problems.

- Orange doesn't care about the problem.

Yellow might be tempted to choose Orange because "at least it's not going to be worse". Green doesn't have enough conceptual understanding, it has to work on the go. In reality Green candidate would realize that solution has to be upgraded.

[DocWatts]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:17 AM, Leo Gura said:

Omg, Don Beck is cringe.

Just goes to show that SD can be misused in the hands of a Boomer.

I like that Trump is the perfect litmus test to seperate the truly conscious from the unconscious. Similar to how Hitler was a litmus test to seperate the truly good intelletuals, like Einstein, from the hacks and confromists.

It's not enough to know SD, the key is to consciously apply it with proper interpretations of the situation and awareness of one's self-biases.

Even people like Ken Wilber misapply SD and misunderstand stage Green. When it comes to Green economics, virtually no Boomer gets it. It's like they are blinded by a lifetime of neoliberal propaganda from which they have benefited.

The idea that Trump is good for America is laughable. The only thing he's good for is exposing how dumb half the country is and how fragile our institutions are.

Republicans and GOP have no answers. They are totally corrupt, ignorant, and morally bankrupt. They have no interest in good government.

As Noam Chomsky correctly says, the Republican party is the most dangerous group of people in the world. Furture generations will laugh in disbelief at how dumb the entire American right-wing was. And even people like Don Beck and Ken Wilber will be seen to be mistaken.

I remember Don Beck mentioning at some point that he would probably characterize himself as Blue in the SD-model, but alas... Good reminder not to put people on a pedestal, and remember that just because someone contributed in an important way to to a field of knowledge doesn't make them an Earthly sage of Wisdom, or make them immune to cognitive compartmentalizing just like anyone else.

Ditto for Ken Wilber for using what at times reads like a Straw-man characterization of Green, where he completely overestimates the influence of Academia on the broader Culture. For someone who writes about Boomeritis, he sure seems blind to the ways that having a Boomer vantage point distorts his perceptions on some things.

Edited December 2, 2020 by DocWatts

[Lyubov]

I am shocked to say the least. I think this forum has a better understanding of SD than Don Beck himself.