Consciousness-Based-System

[Ivan Dimi]

All my life I see this political nonsense all around the world, but the US presidential debate this year was like worse of all, it felt like hitting the rock bottom culturally. I almost had the feeling that we as civilization are going somehow backwards evolutionary. So, the big question is, shouldn’t be our primary goal as civilization before anything else (politics, economics, prosperity, technology whatsoever) achieving a higher collective consciousness? Isn’t that the very important thing we should strive for? So to speak shouldn’t be that or north star as civilization? I think the real evolution is the evolution of Consciousness and not any other kind of development (for example technologically). A monkey with a nuclear weapon still a monkey, even worse it becomes a very dangerous monkey and still miserable.

For example, by choosing presidents or any kind of politicians, representatives whatsoever: why not always looking for the candidate with the highest level of consciousness? Why is that not the very criterion to compare?

Or why or educational system is not designed first of all to increase the level / state of consciousness of the students, using all modern methods (meditation, psychedelics etc.)? And right after achieving this primary requirement starting teaching science, math, chemistry, art etc.

Why do we measure our prosperity by GDP and not by some kind of Collective Level of Consciousness / LOC?

And so on. I guess you´ve got my point and my frustration.

[No Self]

All fair points, but you may be a few centuries ahead of your time.

For example, what did you think about Marianne Williamson? There's a fine line between someone radically advanced and a New Ager who isn't grounded in reality. Progress towards a humane, sustainable, responsible, transparent society should be swift, but still needs to be undertaken one step at a time. And mundanity of engaging in the nuances of issues is still going to be unavoidable.

For example, a sensible debate would be whether to phase out fossil fuels by 2035 or by 2060. Not whether or not climate change is a vast UN conspiracy.

[Willie]

Sooooooooo much of humanity doesn’t have a clue of what you’re proposing.

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Ivan Dimi said:

why not always looking for the candidate with the highest level of consciousness? Why is that not the very criterion to compare?

Or why or educational system is not designed first of all to increase the level / state of consciousness of the students, using all modern methods (meditation, psychedelics etc.)? And right after achieving this primary requirement starting teaching science, math, chemistry, art etc.

Why do we measure our prosperity by GDP and not by some kind of Collective Level of Consciousness / LOC?

Because you need consciousness to even realize that these things are important.

For instance, if you're unconscious, you don't want a candidate with the highest level of consciousness. You want the one that is best going to serve your small bubble of what you consider "I".

So it's a bit a strange loop we are in. In order to raise our consciousness, we need a higher level of consciousness.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Ivan Dimi said:

For example, by choosing presidents or any kind of politicians, representatives whatsoever: why not always looking for the candidate with the highest level of consciousness? Why is that not the very criterion to compare?

Or why or educational system is not designed first of all to increase the level / state of consciousness of the students, using all modern methods (meditation, psychedelics etc.)? And right after achieving this primary requirement starting teaching science, math, chemistry, art etc.

Why do we measure our prosperity by GDP and not by some kind of Collective Level of Consciousness / LOC?

And so on. I guess you´ve got my point and my frustration.

Easy for you to say once you've watched all my videos. But without that, you'd never know these things.

Everything is obvious in hindsight.

[Inliytened1]

@Ivan Dimi  as others said you would be centuries ahead of your time.  Look at what an egoic mess things are right now and try to come in and say that.  You would be demonized.    Thats the LOC we are at now....so if you try to convince a population at a certain LOC to pick the Preisdent by LOC its like trying to grasp the Infinite with the finite.  Not saying you shouldn't try but be prepared to be demonized.  And even if they did go for it they would ultimately choose a President at the LOC they themselves were at and we would be right back where we started because they wouldn't be able to see beyond that.

[Ivan Dimi]

8 hours ago, No Self said:

All fair points, but you may be a few centuries ahead of your time.

For example, what did you think about Marianne Williamson? There's a fine line between someone radically advanced and a New Ager who isn't grounded in reality. Progress towards a humane, sustainable, responsible, transparent society should be swift, but still needs to be undertaken one step at a time. And mundanity of engaging in the nuances of issues is still going to be unavoidable.

For example, a sensible debate would be whether to phase out fossil fuels by 2035 or by 2060. Not whether or not climate change is a vast UN conspiracy.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. And we as society shouldn't rush it somehow radically in that (or any other) direction. But at least the goal / the destination should be in the right direction. Let me give you an example: I don't expect after a president like Donald Trump a president like Eckhart Tolle, but why not expecting at least future presidents having advisors for example like Leo? I don't think that is so radical.

[Ivan Dimi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Easy for you to say once you've watched all my videos. But without that, you'd never know these things.

Everything is obvious in hindsight.

It is not only by the watching the content, but also doing the work. And even after increasing my consciousness only a bit, it is super obvious that that's the only game in town worth playing  .

[No Self]

7 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

advisors for example like Leo? I don't think that is so radical.

Perhaps they do.

Some people in politics have very conscious ideas without necessarily following the 'nondual' or 'spiritual' concept. Some identify as Christian or atheist. It doesn't matter; they have intelligence, insight and no traces of narcissism.

As for going backwards, keep in mind that evolution is not a straight line. Germany is an example of a nation that went backwards and then became perhaps the most conscious large nation on the planet. The US might slingshot forward in the coming months, though no promises.

[Ivan Dimi]

4 minutes ago, No Self said:

Perhaps they do.

Some people in politics have very conscious ideas without necessarily following the 'nondual' or 'spiritual' concept. Some identify as Christian or atheist. It doesn't matter; they have intelligence, insight and no traces of narcissism.

As for going backwards, keep in mind that evolution is not a straight line. Germany is an example of a nation that went backwards and then became perhaps the most conscious large nation on the planet. The US might slingshot forward in the coming months, though no promises.

Yes, may be Trump was kind of collective ego backlash! Who knows. Let's hope greater good is coming after that. But still... at that moment it feels like regress. Sure, the evolution is not a straight line and Germany is a very good example. The only thing is we can't afford globally mistakes like Germany did.  

[Forestluv]

15 hours ago, Ivan Dimi said:

Or why or educational system is not designed first of all to increase the level / state of consciousness of the students, using all modern methods (meditation, psychedelics etc.)? And right after achieving this primary requirement starting teaching science, math, chemistry, art etc.

Because this is not what the vast majority of society desires and demands.

I’ve tried to do it at the college level and there is strong pushback from students and administration. It’s not what most people want at this time.

[DocWatts]

Since one's level of consciousness is directly tied to the Survival Strategy of whatever Cultural and Socio-Economic Context that Individual happens to be living in, something tangible we could do is improve the living conditions for ordinary people as American society transitions from Orange to Green.

Investments in education will pay dividends in this regard, even recognizing that our educational system is outdated and far from ideal. The basics of Media Literacy and Epistemology should be required courses alongside History and Algebra as part of a primary education curriculum. Even a rudimentary level of College Education provides some degree of inoculation against being taken in by Conspiracy Theories and by Propaganda.

Doing what we can to reform Late Stage Capitalism so there's not as many desperate, hopeless people in our Society who become vulnerable to manipulation by Bad Faith Actors will also pay Dividends.

To demonstrate this with a parallel, there's a reason why  Nazi ideology wasn't taken seriously in the relatively prosperous decade of the 1920s, and only caught on in mainstream German Culture with the immense suffering and deprivation of the Great Depression to serve as a Catalyst.

Edited November 25, 2020 by DocWatts

[Forestluv]

Back in the 1950s, part of survival strategy, culture and sociology-economic context was that women were homemakers. Education for women was “home economics”. These education programs taught women how to cook meals, rear children, clean their homes, sewing etc. At this primarily blue stage, there was very little demand for women to learn and train for other careers such as law, chemistry, engineering etc. That has changed with the transition to Orange - women are now about half the students in STEM. Yet there is currently relatively little demand for green and yellow education. It is often seen as irrelevant and impractical to one’s own personal desires and achievement. Exploring green and yellow is a luxury that most people don’t have. Most people are living paycheck to paycheck trying to meet the survival needs of themselves and family. Many people lack healthcare and live in unsafe environments. In these environments, it’s extra challenging to learn about things that aren’t directly relevant to one’s immediate desires and survival needs.

[DocWatts]

@Forestluv. Agreed. Green policies can help make the Orange socio-economic systems that we have in this country more functional for ordinary people, without necessarily having to frame it as a Green revolution. The people benefiting from a more humane socio- economic arrangement don't have to be at Green or Yellow to be better off with these policies in place, a strong case just needs to be made that allowing reforms to take place will make thier lives better.

A better education system and public investments in Infrastructure and STEM would be a win-win for both ordinary people and also for the business community. A publicly funded Health Care system would not only make life better for both poor and middle class people, but would also relieve businesses of the burden of having to provide outrageously expensive Health Care coverage for thier employees. Of course the tradeoff here is higher taxes, but America thrived during the fifties and sixties when the top marginal tax rate was close to %90. It's no surprise that the most exploitative businesses will bitch and moan about all of this, but it's not hard to see this as a Bad Faith argument that's not worth taking seriously, and in the end they'll adapt.

 

[Ivan Dimi]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Because this is not what the vast majority of society desires and demands.

I’ve tried to do it at the college level and there is strong pushback from students and administration. It’s not what most people want at this time.

I am curious. What did you try exactly? And why did they reject your methods?

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

I am curious. What did you try exactly? And why did they reject your methods?

Various things. For example, I tried to teach SD to freshman and the majority of students are not interested. I’ve also done 5-10 minute meditations at the start of class to get grounded in the moment and improve focus / attention. Most students hate it and give negative evaluations. They think it is a waste of time and can’t see how consciousness work is beneficial. Only about 10% of students are into it. 

Poor reviews prevent faculty from getting merit bonuses and promotion. Students will start to avoid taking the course and administration will push back that the course isnt selling well and isn't helping retention and recruiting. And it sucks to teach material you are passionate about to students that dont want to be there, lack interest in the material and complain. As well, transpersonal material is very different than how most minds are conditioned to think. There are all sorts of mental blocks. 

Overall, there are a variety of pressures to give what the public wants. And pressures against pulling the public up a conscious level. 

[Ivan Dimi]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

 Exploring green and yellow is a luxury that most people don’t have. Most people are living paycheck to paycheck trying to meet the survival needs of themselves and family. Many people lack healthcare and live in unsafe environments. In these environments, it’s extra challenging to learn about things that aren’t directly relevant to one’s immediate desires and survival needs.

I don’t completely agree with this statement. It sounds like you are saying consciousness work is privilege (luxury) of the few ones or rather that one should straightly follow the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where only achieving the top of it allows you to pursue self-actualization. I completely disagree with the Maslow's model, not only theoretically but also through the lections I’ve learned in my own life. I mean who says it should be that way? I think the western materialistic civilization pretty much misunderstood the priority of human needs. What I am saying is why not putting this pyramid inside down and start with consciousness work as the very basic need? Everything else is sure important, but we should pursue it as a consequence of a clear high consciousness mind and not the opposite way. Imagine a society where the kids form very early edge are taught consciousness work…

 These bad environments you are talking of, are most of the time bad not because of the scarcity of resources but because of very low collective consciousness and because we set stupid collective goals and measure our individual worth by idiotic materialistic standards.

[Forestluv]

@Ivan Dimi I don’t disagree with you that consciousness work has value, This is obvious to you because you’ve already realized this. 

From my observations, some environments are more conducive for certain explorations. A lot of explorations are perceived as impractical and a waste of time. Environment and context has an effect on that. If I am working with a group of refugees that are filled with anxiety, discussing the value of quantum theory relative to personal transcendence is not practical and won’t go over very well. Helping them learn English, how to get around town, how to shop for food, where to buy the cheapest diapers etc. will resonate more strongly with them.

And I’m talking about likelihoods. A person immersed in ISIS can have realizations, yet they are generally relative to their baseline conscious level. As well, the likelihood of big realizations would be lower. Your the odds of transmitting yellow-level realizations to an ISIS member is lower than than someone in a yoga group. Yet it’s also relative. I would consider a red-to-blue awakening as significant as an orange-to-green awakening. 

I see Maslow’s theory as an integrated whole, rather than distinct categories. No one is in one category 100% of the time. Yet life conditions do impact access. Last semester, a student’s father got gravely ill with kidney failure. The students family was in another country. The student was extremely worried about her father. It was the week before finals and the student wanted to take her finals before flying home. Her family got outraged and said as a woman she shouldn’t even be in college, she should be a homemaker. They told her she didn’t really love her father and not to come home. The student had a nervous breakdown and came to my office in tears, contemplating suicide. . . This is not a good environment to whip out some Rupert Spira videos on transpersonal nonduality. This was an environment to address situations at the personal level and problem solve.

[andyjohnsonman]

well we are getting there slowly. The fact that Leo's youtube channel has 1 million subscribers shows that people are interested in it.

[Death_]

@Ivan Dimi Like Leo said in one of his duality videos, war vs peace. There is only Peace with a capital P.