Is it possible direct experience without ideas?

[Gesundheit]

Honestly, I'm confused by your questions.

Are you asking if it's possible to perceive reality while the mind is completely silent?

Are you asking whether direct experience and thoughts are two different things?

Or are you asking if it's possible to contemplate without thoughts?

Regardless, here's an intuitive answer from my gut feeling: Imagination.

[RedLine]

13 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Honestly, I'm confused by your questions.

Are you asking if it's possible to perceive reality while the mind is completely silent?

Are you asking whether direct experience and thoughts are two different things?

Or are you asking if it's possible to contemplate without thoughts?

Regardless, here's an intuitive answer from my gut feeling: Imagination.

the second one

[73809]

Two questions

 1. Is a thought direct experience

2. is direct experience thought

[Moksha]

Direct experience is pure awareness, and the absolute absence of thought.

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, 73809 said:

Two questions

 1. Is a thought direct experience

2. is direct experience thought

1 yes. 

2 yes and no

. 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

You make a distinction between ideas and forms.

There really is no you. 

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

Even if you are enlighten you see forms.

There really is no form.

5 hours a day of meditation is a potential red flag of life avoidance and could very well be preventing breakthroughs in an underlying self undermining way. Seeing unconscious is equally helpful. An ego sitting for a thousand years is still an ego. Use google and a pad of paper and actively deconstruct what a glass is. It’ll lead to qm’s, deconstructing the senses, emotions, etc. It’s not really about there being no glass, but there being no you. One of the most effective approaches (they culminate) is simply doing what the ego does not want. If ego says ‘I’m going natural’, take a psychedelic, if it says ‘I’m doing this myself’, talk to someone, etc. Arguably, the greater the variety of approaches, the broader the scope & quicker the breakthroughs, the deeper the embodiment, and the fewer pesky blind spots. 

[Mvrs]

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

Is it possible to contemplate a glass without imposing the idea of "glass" over it?

 

Is it possible to contemplate a glass without contemplating a glass?

 

Do te distinction between ideas vs direct experiencie actually make sense? it looks like reality is always made by ideas/concepts that we LEARNED, even when we directly contemplate it.

Takes a lot of practice , weird I was just contemplating this more deeply today and it’s the first post I see 

[Javfly33]

@RedLine What do you think would happen if you observe a glass withouth maintining the belief/assumption that there is a you (a perceiver) looking at a glass?

Notice that you do not have to "do" something to do this experiment. Just look, and let go of the "feeling" that there is a You that is observing a glass.

[Moksha]

@Javfly33 "You" are no more than intentional, misdirected attention.

[Javfly33]

1 minute ago, Moksha said:

@Javfly33 "You" are no more than intentional, misdirected attention.

Yeah, but not everybody knows that 

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

One of the most effective approaches (they culminate) is simply doing what the ego does not want. If ego says ‘I’m going natural’, take a psychedelic, if it says ‘I’m doing this myself’, talk to someone, etc. Arguably, the greater the variety of approaches, the broader the scope & quicker the breakthroughs, the deeper the embodiment, and the fewer pesky blind spots.

Powerful stuff!

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, RedLine said:

I meditate 5 hours per day

Also remember, when it comes to meditation: quality over quantity.

It does little good to meditate 5 hours but it is a sloppy 5 hours of monkey mind. Tighten up your method and reduce your time. You will gain more this way.

[Gesundheit]

6 hours ago, RedLine said:

the second one

"Are you asking whether direct experience and thoughts are two different things?"

The map is not the territory. So yeah, they're two different things. You can have a billion thoughts about one experience, let's say an apple. You can think about its colors, shape, taste, feeling, edges, 3D rotation, lighting, memories of eating special apples, Newton and gravity, Mac and iPhone, Adam and Eve, etc... All of those thoughts won't able to create the same experience of an apple in your present direct experience. There will always be something missing. This missing component is the difference between thought and direct experience. And that missing component is you.

 

[Cosmin_Visan]

@RedLine It's even more than this. Qualia themselves are ideas. For example, colors themselves are ideas. For an in-depth take on the issue, check-out my paper "Is Qualia Meaning or Understanding?": https://philpeople.org/profiles/cosmin-visan

[Hotaka]

1. Not possible. Any experience will be an idea. The existence of anything is an idea. Eckart tolle says this, that you can look at things without seeing names over the form. That makes no difference, you might as well name the form thus you can have a relationship with it. If you don't name the form it is nothing, it is useless.

2. Yes of course you can look at a tree without having any ideas whatsoever, just your relationship with the tree. In some way you might be actually engaging with the tree or glass on a direct personal level, where you are one and your life force and it's are one. This is good. I believe the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali talk about the end goal as being where the subject merges with the object or vice versa. Not bad. If you are aiming for this it is not a bad thing. At all.

- Sorry if there seems to be a contradiction here in what I am saying, it is up to you which perspective you want to use. I would use both to be honest. Depends on the time and place of course.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Hotaka

[Cosmin_Visan]

30 minutes ago, Hotaka said:

2. Yes of course you can look at a tree without having any ideas whatsoever, just your relationship with the tree.

I don't think you can see the tree if you don't name it.

[Moksha]

5 hours ago, Cosmin_Visan said:

I don't think you can see the tree if you don't name it.

You can see it, with spiritual eyes. The dream senses recede, loosening perceived cohesion of the energies defining each entity, and you realize the lively spiritual energy connecting everything.