For the 100th time; does mars exist??

[SamueLSD]

I've obsessed over this question so many times, never reaching a proper conclusion. I've listened to Leo, Rupert Spira, and others, and they indeed say history, planets, basically anything outside of my own experience is completely imaginary and a belief, only for them to contradict themselves . For example, they directly refer to the experience of others as if it exists. How does that work? 

So, my question: Are things outside of my direct experience  -  including the perspective of another  -  imaginary in the sense that reality is imaginary, ( and they DO exist but I just haven't experienced them in their actuality ), OR are they imaginary in the sense that the idea of Santa Claus is imaginary, and are literally not there until I in some way observe them / experience them?

If you care to comment your opinion, please elaborate on it rather than leave a blatant statement/fact that I can't contemplate further with.

 

Thanks 

 

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, SamueLSD said:

Leo, Rupert Spira, and others, and they indeed say history, planets, basically anything outside of my own experience is completely imaginary and a belief

I don't understand what they mean by that. Mars would be as imaginary as the bar where I had a coffee this morning, all is in the mind at the end

[SamueLSD]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

I don't understand what they mean by that. Mars would be as imaginary as the bar where I had a coffee this morning, all is in the mind at the end

The thing is, if I continue without understanding it and just accept what they say, I'm just ignorantly believing things, which is the very thing we are NOT doing in this work. Lol

[Rilles]

Yes and no.

[cuteguy]

When something is not directly in your experience, when you talk about it, by definition, you are only imagining it and there is nothing to it but imagination. That is obvious.

When you are directly experiencing it, you are also imagining it, because it is only made out of your mind. That means, you are looking at your mind, and not something outside of your mind. The assumption that what you see is outside of your mind is what teachers attack when they say "It's not real."

[Gesundheit]

It's more subtle than that.

First of all, about recognizing the limitations of the human devices. We can only experience things within certain fields and ranges. These are what we call the senses. The rest, which we may call concept and imagination, is imaginary. That's its actual nature in the present moment.

Second, Mars does not exist as a planet like we normally think it does. Nor is it imaginary like Santa Claus (not made-up). It is somewhere in the middle. It exists as pure potential. Now what is pure potential exactly? This is the crux of the inquiry. And what that is is an undefined field of energy, until the moment you look at it and experience it. In other words, you don't know if Mars exists as a planet until you look at it directly. When you aren't looking, it could have gotten destroyed, or eaten by a cosmic fish, or whatever. But it is definitely real and exists, and definitely not made-up like Santa Claus.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, cuteguy said:

When you are directly experiencing it, you are also imagining it, because it is only made out of your mind. That means, you are looking at your mind, and not something outside of your mind. The assumption that what you see is outside of your mind is what teachers attack when they say "It's not real."

Yes, all is in the mind, even the phone where I'm writing, but I can assume that there is a phone and the image in my mind is a representation of the real phone, but same I can assume that Mars exist 

[Leo Gura]

@SamueLSD Look at what Mars is for you. How do you know about it at all? It is just hearsay and belief.

Have you ever seen it? No? Then what else could it be but a belief?

If you ever see it with your own eyes then it will become something more than belief for you.

Buy a telescope and actually try to find Mars and notice the difference between what you find and the belief you had.

[73809]

Everything is imaginary, imo. You can’t look at something without perceiving something about it. (Well you can but it takes training to do)

 

 in reality, Mars is a small light in the sky. Make of that what you will, it’s belief. But is that so bad? You can’t operate in reality without belief. (Again you can but it takes training)

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

you ever see it with your own eyes then it will become something more than belief for you.

I have light sensors that are the eyes, and if they detect Mars I assume it exists, but it could be a hallucination, the same I have other sensors that are the ears and if I hear people saying that they have detected Mars I assume it is true, although it could not be ... I don't see the difference

[TheAvatarState]

@SamueLSD Consider that object permanence, the idea that any object stays or "exists" whether you're currently experiencing it or not, can never be proven by science. For all you know, reality disappears and gets re-rendered every time you blink or go to sleep. You don't actually know you're in the same universe you were in yesterday. Object permanence is a projection (assumption) of your mind to ground reality. 

So, does Mars exist? If you look up at the night sky and see mars, then what you see exists. Just what you see, not all the facts you think you know about mars, including the name Mars. That all exists as a belief. The second you look away from Mars, it ceases to exist, and becomes belief. 

Does this all sound crazy or stupid or impractical? Well yes... but that's just one way to look at it. Another equally valid perspective is that nothing exists and everything is imagination. Notice that you're playing a word game here based on whatever "exist" means to you at the time.

In actuality, there is no difference between Santa Claus and your current experience or the experience of another. Santa claus exists in the consciousnesses of millions of children worldwide. Oh, but he has to exist in 3d space? Well what if 3d space is created by consciousness? What then? Which is more real or worthy of the title of "exist?" "Existence" is an imaginary and relative notion, based on many factors we take for granted, including a physical 3d space, physical laws, and even the way you use you mind and methods of "thinking" such as logic and reason. What you consider "the body" colors everything about your question. I just want to open your mind to see you may be stuck at the level of word game.  

Notice that the two perspectives I mentioned have different uses, and present different insights. Reality is nothing but perspective. 

[PurpleTree]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@SamueLSD Look at what Mars is for you. How do you know about it at all? It is just hearsay and belief.

I've seen it without a telescope a few weeks ago.

One night there was a star shining really bright, i showed my friend and said dude look that star is noiceee

He took his smartphone where he has this app which names planets and zodiacs etc. and he told me it's mars.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have light sensors that are the eyes, and if they detect Mars I assume it exists, but it could be a hallucination, the same I have other sensors that are the ears and if I hear people saying that they have detected Mars I assume it is true, although it could not be ... I don't see the difference

That is a story, not direct experience. Huge difference.

25 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I've seen it without a telescope a few weeks ago.

One night there was a star shining really bright, i showed my friend and said dude look that star is noiceee

He took his smartphone where he has this app which names planets and zodiacs etc. and he told me it's mars.

For the love of God, that is BELIEF and HEARSAY!

You guys are failing miserably at grasping the obvious.

Sit down and get clear about what is belief and what is not. Make this distinction. It's not hard, but you are too lazy to actually do it. You are not doing the work, you are just parroting ideas you heard. That will get you nowhere.

[howtoyellow]

Asking does Mars exist is like asking does Sugar taste sweet, without ever tasting anything sweet in life.

Can't describe how sweet is a doughnut to someone who hasn't eaten one. Plain words no meat

Edited November 21, 2020 by howtoyellow

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is a story, not direct experience. Huge difference.

Well , I put a bad example. I wanted to say that it's the same to assume that anything that you ve seen in the past exist, or anything that all evidence indicates that exist, like Africa. Both are in the mind

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, SamueLSD said:

Are things outside of my direct experience  -  including the perspective of another  -  imaginary in the sense that reality is imaginary, ( and they DO exist but I just haven't experienced them in their actuality ), OR are they imaginary in the sense that the idea of Santa Claus is imaginary, and are literally not there until I in some way observe them / experience them?

How could you distinguish these two possibilities?

[caspex]

@SamueLSD You might be taking for granted there are other people who can experience as well. There is not even you. There is only being. 

Now contemplation can be done on this: The sensations that are happening. Hearing, seeing, smelling, taste, all feeling, thinking(which includes you imagining different people). How do you distinguish between them. For eg. How can you distinguish between sight and hearing. What's the difference? 

Once you realize this DOT of being and sensation is the only thing there is. This question is no more. 

Some pointers:

1. How do you know when I prick you on your finger that I pricked you on the finger? Aren't you just associating 'the feeling of your finger' with 'the finger' in the sight? How do you know the feeling that happened, happened in that finger?

2. Don't forget to include the feeling of the head inside and out and also the jaw , the eyes, and the whole frontal face + back and inside of the ears when being aware of the sensations. Also the breath as it moves. 

3. Notice how all thought and choices arises on their own, spontaneously. Even your act of trying to be aware.

4. Try to imagine what shape could this mega sensation (all of the sensation of your being) be. And try to locate yourself. 

What I think on the issue:

By doing this exercise and all properly, it is apparent that nothing exist outside this field of sensations. This mega sensation is all that there is. And that this mega sensation is what keeps changing. This mega sensation is the picture moving on the screen of the awareness. It's not a perception or an experience, but it's being.

Now it is alright to hold beliefs such as mars exist and all that if you want to have a social life. After all, this 'reality' seems to be consistent. And I don't think you can change this consistency until you are insane amount of conscious. Like really insane. Like materializing a red ball in your hand kinda insane. Otherwise from the direct experience I can say that this mega sensation is all that there is.

Now I do think this mega sensation or being can be expanded. Now from expanded dont get me wrong. I don't mean that it is like a bubble in some outside space and can capture more. I mean it more like. This mega sensation can include more ways of experiencing life/reality/god than just these 6 - 7 senses. How does all that work? No fucking clue.

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I wanted to say that it's the same to assume that anything that you ve seen in the past exist, or anything that all evidence indicates that exist, like Africa. Both are in the mind

That is beyond the scope of what we are talking about. First, get the basic distinction between a belief and direct experience of a thing.

When we talk about direct experience of Mars, we are not implying that it exists forever permanently. That's an additional projection your mind adds to the experience. We are simply talking about the experience. Have you ever experienced Mars for yourself? Yes or no? I don't care if you think it exists without you looking at it. And I don't care if you think it is a hallucination. Those are separate issues.

[Preety_India]

Of course  Mars exists. How else can Elon Musk make money? 

 

[Breakingthewall]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

First, get the basic distinction between a belief and direct experience of a thing.

 

I got that distinction clearly, I thought that the point was another, like even direct experience through your senses is only in the mind (as it really is)

 

49 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Of course  Mars exists. How else can Elon Musk make money? 

 

Elon is going to get ruined with Mars...maybe it means that it doesn't exist