I don't understand why people idolize Lenin, the Soviet Union, and sometimes Stalin

[Haloman]

@Leo Gura From one side he is right - relationships were more deep, people felt more connected in Soviet Union, than in this capitalistic hierarchical western society. But the cost of it was high deficit of material goods what modern world can produce now. But as we all now you can get more happiness form people than from material things.

[Opo]

46 minutes ago, Haloman said:

@Leo Gura From one side he is right - relationships were more deep, people felt more connected in Soviet Union, than in this capitalistic hierarchical western society. But the cost of it was high deficit of material goods what modern world can produce now. But as we all now you can get more happiness form people than from material things.

It's tricky. 

People in the war experience insane connection to their group.

But that doesn't mean it's overall worth it starting a war for meaning and connection. 

Just a thought. 

55 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

but I'm trying to get past such Yellow tendencies..  I'm trying to settle for just "expanding perspectives" now.  No logical deductions or overarching theories, not worth my time explaining all that; and I'm just bored of Yellow I guess..

You're far from Yellow. 

[nitramadas]

 

Quote

It's tricky. 

People in the war experience insane connection to their group.

But that doesn't mean it's overall worth it starting a war for meaning and connection. 

Just a thought. 

I don't think the USSR was a battlefield type situation for most people.. lol

 

1 minute ago, Opo said:

You're far from Yellow. 

.. ok.  Great insight.

[Opo]

3 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

I don't think the USSR was a battlefield type situation for most people.. lol

Who said it was? 

It was just an example and I even wrote "Just a thought" so people like you would understand im not attacking USSR. 

But I guess I have to spell it out. 

Im just making an extreme example so it is easier to understand that just because something gives a positive change in one part of the system doesn't mean it's overall positive. 

[nitramadas]

5 minutes ago, Opo said:

Who said it was? 

It was just an example and I even wrote "Just a thought" so people like you would understand im not attacking USSR. 

But I guess I have to spell it out. 

Im just making an extreme example so it is easier to understand that just because something gives a positive change in one part of the system doesn't mean it's overall positive. 

(◉﹏◉;)  woah! chill the fuck out dude! 

You really are far from it..

[Opo]

7 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

(◉﹏◉;)  woah! chill the fuck out dude! 

You really are far from it..

Lol

Wtf

[PurpleTree]

10 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

(◉﹏◉;)  woah! chill the fuck out dude! 

You really are far from it..

He just said people bond under tough circumstances and the USSR was probably very "tough" for a lot or most people

I'm sure there were some good things too, like community activities etc. And there are some big problems with capitalism for sure.

But all the lives lost in the USSR, the fear of never knowing if you would be sent to a gulag etc. sounds pretty bad.

I mean people  didn't flee from the west to the USSR as far as i know but they did the flee the other way.

 

[Peter-Andre]

6 hours ago, nitramadas said:

Please don't take such a condescending tone when you, an upper-middle class American, haven't even been affected by the USSR, and have experienced no tragedy in your family as a result of the union.

@nitramadas You might not be aware of this, but Leo is actually from Russia originally (but moved to the US with his family at a young age), so I'd be careful with making such assumptions about his family.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, nitramadas said:

Please don't take such a condescending tone when you, an upper-middle class American, haven't even been affected by the USSR, and have experienced no tragedy in your family as a result of the union. 

I was born in the USSR.

Please do keep telling me how wonderful it was to wait in line for a loaf of bread.

[Abdelghafar]

@Leo Gura Out of curiosity, how long have you stayed in Russia when you were a boy?

I won't follow up on your response, just curious.

[Lews Therin]

8 hours ago, nitramadas said:

I could write a 50000 word essay on why communism failed, but I'm trying to get past such Yellow tendencies..  I'm trying to settle for just "expanding perspectives" now.  No logical deductions or overarching theories, not worth my time explaining all that; and I'm just bored of Yellow I guess..

Don't take this as an attack, but logical deductions is a Orange thing, I can speak of this with some amount understanding cause through my first months studying spiral dynamics i thought i was manly yellow getting my first fingers on turquoise. Now i've realise that i have just recently started to embody Green.

I can't say if that's your case, nor anyone else here, only you can. To me the realisation came as a great hit to my ego, as i thought i was so advanced. Now i know it helped me a lot understand the struggles i am going through, which in turn helped me feel way more peacefull through a better understandind of my shortcomings.

Spiral Dynamics as a way of gratifying your ego is a useless distraction, but if you are willing to be honest with yourself about where you are, it can be a very powerfull tool.

 

On a side note, the USSR might have been bad in many aspects, but i don't feel it deserves all this bashing, from what i know many advancements in tecnology and medicine were achived there. And the speed of modernisation they made was something many would think was impossible if not for the fact that it was achieved by them. All things considered, it may not deserve so much praise, but it deserves respect.

[Thewritersunion]

Yeah. I feel bad for the state Russia is in now. I’m expecting Russia to fracture somewhere in the Siberian region. 

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Classic video:

 

Lol, well I'm convinced.

[Tim R]

10 hours ago, nitramadas said:

The soviet times were pretty good.  Everything was taken care of, things were being built, the world was becoming more connected.  It was like a Blue paradise

@nitramadas That is just so not true.. Leo is older than me so he was more aware of what happened at the times, but I was born in Russia (Siberia) in the 90s, and those were no good times.

Standing in line for a loaf of bread wasn't even the worst part, people got mugged on the street at night, the police was utterly corrupt (because they were struggling as well of course) so you really couldn't expect much help from anybody.

Stores were robbed or had to pay protection money and in some cases if you happened to be in a store that got robbed, you and the rest of the people would be shot (although that was "rare").

As soon as it got dark you'd better be at home or at least with someone.

10 hours ago, nitramadas said:

As I said, my whole family grew up in the USSR, yet you're absolutely convinced your idea of what the USSR was is more accurate?

I don't know man, even if your family had the fortune of living better than the majority, there's absolutely no denying of the miserable living conditions of most people - especially of poor people. Why do you think alcoholism was (and still is) such a problem?

Sometimes (and I'm not kidding)  the only thing we'd have in our fridge were some damn pickled cucumbers in a jar...

Meat was the most expensive food.

10 hours ago, Haloman said:

relationships were more deep, people felt more connected in Soviet Union

@Haloman But only because there really wasn't much choice about this. Being a egotistic individualist in the 90s wasn't exactly a very promising strategy...

 

My whole family literally sold everything they had to get enough money to travel to Germany (where we live now). 

@nitramadas People wouldn't have left this country if it was paradise, would they? 

[TrustTheProcess]

content vs structure

The soviet system packaged itself in socialist skin, but really, if you look at the structure, their level of consciousness, values, and worldviews were more similar to the Tsars than to someone like Noam Chomsky... socialism in the way Marx described is a theoretical post-orange social and economic system.

[dafels]

Soviet Union 50 year forced rule in my region basically destroyed the region and put it in stagnation. Since the collapse and the moment we broke free, we have been developing back slowly catching up the western average level of development... Soviet Union was a disaster.

The way the state kept power also needs to be considered by the people that are dreaming of the "Soviet" nostalgia, it was basically snitching, NKVD, censorship, strict policing, propoganda, and early at the beginning of the state it was killing or putting in prison the people that the regime didn't like.

Most of the people that think that Soviet Union was good need to be informed about the attrocities on how the communism was achieved and maintained.

Edited November 20, 2020 by dafels

[Axiomatic]

I recommend the book "Young Stalin" to anyone interested. It is insane how this Georgian peasant boy climbed his way to the pinnacle of soviet rule. Seems like a 1 in a million chance when you think about it. 

[nitramadas]

13 hours ago, Opo said:

Lol

Wtf

Was just reacting to your demeanour.  Don't worry about it.

 

13 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

He just said people bond under tough circumstances and the USSR was probably very "tough" for a lot or most people

That's what I thought he was gonna say, but the way he worded it "People in the war experience insane connection to their group" made me question this.  That is what you say about people who fight and die together, "brothers in arms" or something.  The USSR was more like "the great depression" type of situation.

 

13 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I'm sure there were some good things too, like community activities etc. And there are some big problems with capitalism for sure.

 

4 hours ago, Tim R said:

@nitramadas That is just so not true.. Leo is older than me so he was more aware of what happened at the times, but I was born in Russia (Siberia) in the 90s, and those were no good times.

Standing in line for a loaf of bread wasn't even the worst part, people got mugged on the street at night, the police was utterly corrupt (because they were struggling as well of course) so you really couldn't expect much help from anybody.

Stores were robbed or had to pay protection money and in some cases if you happened to be in a store that got robbed, you and the rest of the people would be shot (although that was "rare").

As soon as it got dark you'd better be at home or at least with someone.

I don't know man, even if your family had the fortune of living better than the majority, there's absolutely no denying of the miserable living conditions of most people - especially of poor people. Why do you think alcoholism was (and still is) such a problem?

You see, the title of the thread was asking for reasons why some may look at the USSR positively..  Not for a balanced analysis.  My family is from one of the formerly occupied countries.  Although it was a net contributor to the union, and Russia selfishly imported almost all the meat from of the country for itself, it still brought order to things.  You don't realize how much Blues value that.  Blue is the stage that lives to sacrifice itself for the future, for the afterlife.  USSR was almost like a religion in a way.  Yeah it's shit, so what?  Someone asks what the benefits of Christianity are, I give them.  I'm not here to give my opinion, just to share new ideas.

 

4 hours ago, Tim R said:

 

@nitramadas People wouldn't have left this country if it was paradise, would they? 

I did say a Blue paradise, more specifically, I meant "the concept of a Blue paradise".  Many fantasize what could've been, had it continued.  

 

4 hours ago, Tim R said:

Sometimes (and I'm not kidding)  the only thing we'd have in our fridge were some damn pickled cucumbers in a jar...

Meat was the most expensive food.

Yeah.  Poverty has been a thing for all of human history, and still is.  I was pointing out the good, having seen the title of the thread

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I was born in the USSR.

Wow, that's news to me, had no idea.  Then I take some of that back.  : )  Though I hope you realize I wasn't saying the USSR was good, they literally invaded my country and set it back decades, in many ways.  I was just answering the title question, and aiming to add new perspectives, as always.  If you're actually from Russia, you were on the invading side anyways..  : P

Oh and.. you do realize a communist-like system is the future, right?  It's not like people will continue to work BS jobs forever.  A power imbalance isn't a necessity for society.  Capitalism is just the fast-track to a robot-capitalism.  When everything is automated and everyone has access to the absolute highest level of education and everything, there's no need for competition between humans.  The USSR simply attempted it far too early, with people of a far too low of a stage.  I'd have hoped you'd at least see the bigger picture in all this..  I do share the views you express in most of your videos, so I'm assuming you simply misinterpreted my intentions.

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Please do keep telling me how wonderful it was to wait in line for a loaf of bread.

w-why are you so mean  ･ﾟ･(｡இ﹏இ｡)･ﾟ･

 

 

Edit:

Could this hostility be from assuming I'm Orange?  *Sigh* if there only was a way to prove my good, loving intentions.. : (

I'm just direct and unfiltered.  Why must people assume the worst?  I wish I could say something controversial, and have people still feel the love..

 

Disclaimer: 

I have nothing against Orange, It's just that:  If Orange says x, you can be sure they meant it in an Orange way. 

Green doesn't say anything bad, doing everything it can to avoid conflict. 

Yellow feels free to say anything, disagreement is fine, but it still always tries to convey its positivity and lack of seriousness.  Never actually intending to hurt anyone.

 

6 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

Don't take this as an attack, but logical deductions is a Orange thing

No. 

Unbiased-logic, theories, models, big picture thinking, understanding multiple perspectives, systems thinking, seeing value in everything (even religions), "love is all, but not everyone is ready", etc. —Yellow.  

The manipulation of systems for personal gain, gaining power to have power, having strong beliefs, believing that things are important, judging others for their achievements, rejection of spirituality, thinking religion is stupid, etc. —Orange.

 

Believing in absolute morality, believing "bad" things are "bad" and that simply preventing people from doing them will fix problems, "Gurus" have infinite infallible wisdom, you must always be positive and never show ego, love will solve all the world's problems, orange is evil and must be stopped! —Green

There is no need to change anything, trying to change anything is egoistic, it's fine to be egoistic, speaking is limited and unneeded, understanding is limited and unneeded, "it is wise to know nothing", "love is all, everything else is a distraction", teaching almost exclusively through example —Turquoise

 

Have you not seen Leo's videos on this?  You might wanna watch the one about stage Yellow.  

6 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

I can speak of this with some amount understanding cause through my first months studying spiral dynamics i thought i was manly yellow getting my first fingers on turquoise. Now i've realise that i have just recently started to embody Green.

I can't say if that's your case, nor anyone else here, only you can. To me the realisation came as a great hit to my ego, as i thought i was so advanced. Now i know it helped me a lot understand the struggles i am going through, which in turn helped me feel way more peacefull through a better understandind of my shortcomings.

Don't worry, I welcome challenges!  If you actually have a reason to think I'm x, do point it out.  I've spent a while considering every possibility "maybe I'm just an atypical Orange/Green?  Surely, being somewhere between Yellow & Turquoise is extremely unlikely, right?  What would be the chances?  Maybe I'm biased, and a desire to be a high stage clouds my judgement?"  Of course I've entertained such ideas, I'm an INTP, I've thought about this a LOT, (I've typed and staged pretty much every single person I know [I like psychology, ok?] I'm not giving myself special treatment..).  I mean, if I was just to go off of Leo's video on Orange, Green, Yellow & Turquoise, I would fall right in the middle of Yellow and Turquoise (leaning more on one or the other depending on the day).  I barely identify at all with Orange, and Green just seems immature, and.. "cute" ..somehow.  Yellow has, for some months now, seemed a little dull and limited.  Having done psychedelics dozens of times; having been studying spirituality for close to a decade now; having little care about my personal success; rarely seeing myself as human; knowing the vibe of different stages (including Yellow & Turquoise); and having constantly tried to prove myself wrong.. I'd be more than a little surprised if I was actually Orange.  But you're welcome to give me your reasons for the belief I may be some other stage, if you have any.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by nitramadas

[The0Self]

@nitramadas We're almost certainly turquoise, in the completely empty but fun little nifty construct of spiral dynamics. Yay... I'm an INFP in that other even more useless construct. Constructs are what keep the world constructed!

[Opo]

@nitramadas You have repressed orange.