I don't understand why people idolize Lenin, the Soviet Union, and sometimes Stalin

[Axiomatic]

Disclaimer: I am very left leaning. I have read and researched Marx, studied his philosophies in school, and I am very open to socialist ideals and reforming of capitalism. This is not a thread aimed at discrediting socialism. I have also read extensively on the rise and fall of the Soviet Union, I have read the book "Young Stalin" twice (because I am fascinated by dictators. Especially ones who started out as peasants), and tried my absolute best to be open minded about another way of life on the other side of the planet. 

But I just don't get how anyone can put these Bolsheviks on a pedestal, or at least anymore than we do our slave owning founding fathers. The narrative I often hear from people who are pro soviet union and communist ideals is that Stalin was bad, and ultimately a fascist  in everything but name, and things would have been less brutal if he wouldn't have taken over and Lenin ultimately had the right idea and direction. All of the blame seems to be put on Stalin. At least for people here in the west. 

But from my extensive research, Stalin was clearly one of Lenin's right hand men, and an avid follower of Lenin and Marxism from day one. He provided valuable services for the party. Primarily robbing banks. He was a thug scholar who was looked down upon by Mensheviks and other intellectuals, but Lenin chose to keep him by his side. 

Lenin himself seemed like an extremist and an ass himself. It seemed like he often was very intolerant of any ideals or ways of doing things besides his own. And the Bolshevik party seemed like a very violent and extreme alternative to the more level headed Mensheviks. And they bullied their way to power.  

I have briefly discussed Stalin with Russian's over the internet. And they sum it up as this: Stalin was indeed brutal, but the Russian history and general environment has always required a brutal leader. From Ivan the Terrible, to Peter the Great, there was always a time where Russia was dealing with harsh conditions, whether that be environmentally, or from invasions. And I guess I can understand that. It still seems like a place I would not want to live in.

So why do people idolize these guys as if they are master economic and social gurus? Lenin seem like a fuckin extreme crazy man in my eyes. And it is interesting how the more extreme and intolerant party ended up overshadowing and driving out the more moderate one through brutality. 

Thoughts?

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Axiomatic said:

So why do people idolize these guys as if they are master economic and social gurus? Lenin seem like a fuckin extreme crazy man in my eyes. And it is interesting how the more extreme and intolerant party ended up overshadowing and driving out the more moderate one through brutality. 

Thoughts?

I really barely know anything about it 

but my take is that the Soviet Union kind of was the enemy of the west/capitalism/the US

So these people kind of think "look what capitalism has done, better to like it's enemy"

Personally i haven't seen many which idolise Stalin and Lenin

But i've seen many who idolise Che Guevara and Marx

Also communism makes sense in some way, living in a commune and sharing our food? sounds pretty nice

Gulags? wtffff

Edited November 19, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Axiomatic]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I really barely know anything about it 

but my take is that the Soviet Union kind of was the enemy of the west/capitalism/the US

So these people kind of think "look what capitalism has done, better to like it's enemy"

Personally i haven't seen many which idolise Stalin and Lenin

But i've seen many who idolise Che Guevara and Marx

Also communism makes sense in some way, living in a commune and sharing our food? sounds pretty nice

Gulags? wtffff

Yeah I always thought of hard core lenin supporters as edgy teens/young adults rebelling. I don't think it's quite that simple, but still. Lenin does not strike me as compassionate for humanity from what I have read. 

[Dryas]

Just sounds like twitter tankies.

[Axiomatic]

1 minute ago, Dryas said:

Just sounds like twitter tankies.

wtf is a tankie? 

 

edit: just looked it up on urban dictionary lol. Very accurate

Edited November 19, 2020 by Axiomatic

[Dryas]

3 minutes ago, Axiomatic said:

wtf is a tankie? 

 

edit: just looked it up on urban dictionary lol. Very accurate

For more: https://twitter.com/HotTankie

[Thewritersunion]

IT’S TANKIE TIME

[Haumea2018]

Yeah, Russia's kind of a shithole, although some of its high culture has been exemplary (Tolstoy, Tchaikovsky, Pushkin, etc.) and they've produced some good chess and hockey players.  I tend to think of it as a spiritual place, but spiritual more like a purgatory than heaven.  

Otherwise, yeah, remember that they were mostly serfs until 1861 and the Bolsheviks replaced the tsars (minus a hot minute with a provisional government.)

There are some people who refuse to consider the problems with grafting one country's political system (or some universalist political philosophy) onto another with a different history, culture, geography, ethnic mix, etc.  That's because taking all these factors into consideration complicates the picture immensely, and many people think there are easy answers to things.

(Speaking as someone who spent childhood there.)

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Haumea2018

[Axiomatic]

@Haumea2018 Thank you for your insight! 

[Haumea2018]

2 minutes ago, Axiomatic said:

@Haumea2018 Thank you for your insight! 

You're most welcome!

[Girzo]

They are a stage Blue people on the Spiral Dynamics model. They are nationalistic in structure, look-up to the authority of powerful people, and put classic books on a pedestal. Indulge in labeling themselves comrade, etc, thus creating a strong identity for themselves.

So, they are nothing like modern, hippie lefties, who are at the stage Green. Similar content, completely different structure.

[Leo Gura]

@Axiomatic You are right. There's not much to admire in Lenin. He might have been a bit better than Stalin, but not by much. Socialism in Russia would have never worked, no matrer who was in charge. The development level was not at all ready for it.

There are many people who just believe Marxism is great and will work. Well, that's just not the case. It's great in theory but doesn't fly in practice. But people get ideological about it.

Many Green progressive types are ideoligically stuck on Marxism. They are not truly thinking independently.

[ChadT]

What we really need, is a capitalist system, with a strong socialist safety net.  Which, is pretty much what we have.   I wish the left would find a better way of articulating this.   The socialist / communist label hurts the cause,

 Our system needs a lot more tinkering around the edges for sure, but I think we are on the right path.

[Axiomatic]

5 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

To me, Lenin is a visionary leader, and I hope to be able to embody his vision and strive some day.

Also, he contributed a lot to Marxist theory, which contributed a lot to the Socialist movement, even anti authoritarian Vaush acknowledges Lenin.

but not his right hand man Stalin? 

[Lindsay]

@Axiomatic thanks for the quick overview of your understanding of the Soviet Union, Stalin, and Lenin. This is probably my first exposure of the roots of communism. Now I’m interested in the history. 

[Opo]

3 hours ago, ChadT said:

What we really need, is a capitalist system, with a strong socialist safety net.  Which, is pretty much what we have.   I wish the left would find a better way of articulating this.   The socialist / communist label hurts the cause,

 Our system needs a lot more tinkering around the edges for sure, but I think we are on the right path.

If you live in a Scandinavian County then yeah. 

[nitramadas]

The soviet times were pretty good.  Everything was taken care of, things were being built, the world was becoming more connected.  It was like a Blue paradise (parents/grandparents actually lived in the USSR).  The sense of progress and non-duality unity was lost with the fall of the union.  For many, the soviet times also remind them of their childhood.  Doesn't matter how bad, childhood tends to be looked back on fondly.  

 

Now, if you're, however, referring to the 'Murican stage Green movement, that's a bit different.  With the rise of stage Green, so too comes the rise of Green ideology: 

"love" = "production of love" = "caring" =  "sharing" =  "sharing production" = "production no longer controlled by the few" = "production seized by the many".

 

..and that's why Greens are communists.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

The soviet times were pretty good.  Everything was taken care of,

OMG, please just close your mouth.

You have no clue about Soviet history.

[Shunyata]

@Leo Gura everything comes with two ends there were many families who highly benefited from the Soviet power.

[nitramadas]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

OMG, please just close your mouth.

You have no clue about Soviet history.

Hmm?  Didn't mean to trigger anyone..  As I said, my whole family grew up in the USSR, yet you're absolutely convinced your idea of what the USSR was is more accurate?  Wouldn't have expected this from you..

I had a grandad who was sent off to a Gulag in Siberia, he eventually ended up walking thousands of miles back home, barefoot iirc.  Another side of my family lost everything from being ransacked by the Soviet army.  Please don't take such a condescending tone when you, an upper-middle class American, haven't even been affected by the USSR, and have experienced no tragedy in your family as a result of the union.  Yes, throughout its long history it's been awful at times, I simply shared the perspective of the the average person.  After the collapse, entire towns became abandoned, entire industries..  I have generations of family history from the region, where do you get your info from?

 

I'm sure you wanted me to support some "x = evil" agenda, but no one's gonna learn anything from that.  That's like saying "Hitler was bad".  Why would I parrot common knowledge?  I could write a 50000 word essay on why communism failed, but I'm trying to get past such Yellow tendencies..  I'm trying to settle for just "expanding perspectives" now.  No logical deductions or overarching theories, not worth my time explaining all that; and I'm just bored of Yellow I guess..

Edited November 20, 2020 by nitramadas