Why do you worship death?

[jim123]

If we are just supposed to worship death, then why did God even create life in the first place? If it's better to be dead and never come back, why did God even create the cycle of reincarnation in the first place? It makes no sense. If life just causes suffering, it would have been pointless for God to even create life to begin with. By the way, I don't believe that the cycle of reincarnation exists, but I'm using that as an illustration of my point.

I wouldn't mind to be reincarnated. That would be awesome. I would love to be reincarnated a million times. That's because I like life more than death. The teaching that "all life is suffering" is complete nonsense because many people are living their lives with very minimal suffering. Theoretically, if you lived a perfect life with perfect Christian values, you would not suffer at all. Not even the tiniest bit. The only reason why we suffer is because we are sinners. Sin causes suffering.

The ironic thing is that the people who are trying to escape suffering are actually the ones who suffer the most. Some spiritual guru who is sitting in a dark cave torturing himself probably suffers more than any normal person.

[LastThursday]

12 minutes ago, jim123 said:

Sin causes suffering.

Could you explain this further?

[jim123]

3 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Could you explain this further?

The garden of Eden was a perfect place without suffering. Then when Adam and Eve committed sin by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that caused a lot of suffering. That's why we now live in an imperfect world that has tremendous amounts of suffering in it.

Sin also causes suffering at the individual level as well. The people who commit the most sin tend to be the ones who suffer the most, and the people who commit the least sin tend to be the happiest people. Take the sin of gambling as an example. Often times gambling is the only reason why people get their entire lives destroyed. It becomes an addiction and soon enough you have lost all of your money and have huge debts. It's game over at that point. Or what about sins like drinking or using drugs. People who have a drug addiction are not very happy people. Sins like murder and rape are obviously great sources of suffering. The bigger the sin, the more suffering it causes.

[Member]

Because humans have fallen from the grace of God. Spirituality is about re-establishing that connection with God which is Truth, which is Life.

[LastThursday]

@jim123 would you think there is any suffering not caused by sin?

[No Self]

I must have missed the bit where everyone was worshipping death?

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, jim123 said:

I wouldn't mind to be reincarnated. That would be awesome. I would love to be reincarnated a million times. That's because I like life more than death.

You don't know that yet, you haven't died or don't remember how it was.

But i agree that i generally also wouldn't mind getting re-incarnated a lot (millions?) more as far as i know

and "life is suffering" is a bit a problematic statement, the teaching is probably deeper, i don't know.

But imo there's a lot of suffering but there's equal or more pleasure than suffering generally, depends how easily you can derive pleasure, but by just being in nature, looking at trees etc.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, No Self said:

I must have missed the bit where everyone was worshipping death?

I think what he means is getting out of the wheel of re-incarnation is "worshipped" and kind of the goal, which a lot of eastern traditions are trying to do.

[No Self]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

and "life is suffering" is a bit a problematic statement, the teaching is probably deeper, i don't know.

You are correct. The more correct statement is something like 'suffering is an unavoidable aspect of all life'. And the Buddha presented a genuine solution.

[No Self]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I think what he means is getting out of the wheel of re-incarnation is "worshipped" and kind of the goal, which a lot of eastern traditions are trying to do.

Yes, it just reads a bit like a deliberate misinterpretation/misunderstanding of the Eastern traditions to sneak in a promotion of fundamentalist Christianity. Not really possible to have a constructive discussion on those terms.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, No Self said:

Yes, it just reads a bit like a deliberate misinterpretation/misunderstanding of the Eastern traditions to sneak in a promotion of fundamentalist Christianity. Not really possible to have a constructive discussion on those terms.

So why do you think getting out of the wheel of life is "worshipped" since this world generally is so beautiful?

[No Self]

@PurpleTree

This is a great question. I'll do my best.

Firstly, the word worship implies the duality of the worshipping entity and the worshipped deity, as per Western traditions (eg. the Good Shepherd and his flock). It is already missing the point from a nondual perspective. It is 'Westernising' the Eastern wisdom; the latter is offering the collapse of the ego and all these dualities.

The world is beautiful in many ways, but a brutally honest acknowledgement of the 'bad' side inherent in everything (for example, death, ageing, failure, sickness, cruelty as opposites of life/new birth/success/wellbeing/compassion) makes us aware that one must have a bias, therefore a non-truth-seeking perspective to only see beauty. It is like having a coin but denying that it has 2 sides.

Somebody posted a quote along the lines of 'the suffering of the animal that gets eaten is greater than the pleasure of the animal that consumes it'.

Once the way of the Buddha has been followed right through, then all of life is beautiful because it is not seen as 'real'. The dualities are no longer believed in, yet the process can go on. I hope this makes some sort of sense!

[PurpleTree]

10 minutes ago, No Self said:

@PurpleTree

This is a great question. I'll do my best.

Firstly, the word worship implies the duality of the worshipping entity and the worshipped deity, as per Western traditions (eg. the Good Shepherd and his flock). It is already missing the point from a nondual perspective. It is 'Westernising' the Eastern wisdom; the latter is offering the collapse of the ego and all these dualities.

The world is beautiful in many ways, but a brutally honest acknowledgement of the 'bad' side inherent in everything (for example, death, ageing, failure, sickness, cruelty as opposites of life/new birth/success/wellbeing/compassion) makes us aware that one must have a bias, therefore a non-truth-seeking perspective to only see beauty. It is like having a coin but denying that it has 2 sides.

Somebody posted a quote along the lines of 'the suffering of the animal that gets eaten is greater than the pleasure of the animal that consumes it'.

Once the way of the Buddha has been followed right through, then all of life is beautiful because it is not seen as 'real'. The dualities are no longer believed in, yet the process can go on. I hope this makes some sort of sense!

Yes but then if you let's say follow Buddhas path don't create Karma etc., and escape Samsara (incarnation)

So then you're not re-born anymore which is their highest goal but isn't it more fun to be reborn than not? Because of the beauty etc. in this world.

What actually happens in their teachings if you're not reborn, nothing or something?

I don't know i haven't really looked into to it and it gets too theoretical and "religious"  imo

 

[No Self]

The beliefs around rebirth and Samsara are where Eastern philosophy becomes more egoic and dogmatic. It loses its purity.

For example, in having reincarnation, we are taking for granted a simplistic human perspective of time and sequential events. The physical universe as described by Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and the afterlife as described by Near-Death Experience reports, both agree that time is far stranger than that. It can be said that everything is happening 'now'. Your past self of 10 years ago and your future lifetime are happening now, just at different points in a multi-dimensional space-time continuum.

In a more practical sense, my understanding is that people have a choice in terms of whether they are reborn here or not. There is a lot more in existence than this world, or even this universe. The goal in the bigger picture seems to be reaching a state of mastery (expression of oneness and selfless love within the physical world, like Jesus), and then the whole process repeats. 

But as profound as all of this is, it all falls under the banner of beliefs from our perspective, so is not worth focusing on too much. Just rest assured that God knows what He's doing.

[jim123]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

would you think there is any suffering not caused by sin?

Not at all. Zero. The reason why heaven is a perfect place is because there's no sin in heaven. I think I remember Leo Gura said on one of his videos or blog posts, that if heaven was a literal place, it would be impossible to avoid suffering in that place. I totally disagree with that.

[LastThursday]

2 hours ago, jim123 said:

Then when Adam and Eve committed sin by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

Ok, so I understand the cause of all suffering is (original) sin. What is the cause of sin? Where does it come from?

[Nahm]

 

2 hours ago, jim123 said:

That's because I like life more than death.

 What’s death? 

And what is this “I”?

[jim123]

Just now, LastThursday said:

Ok, so I understand the cause of all suffering is (original) sin. What is the cause of sin? Where does it come from?

It originates from man's own free will. Have you ever wondered why exactly did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to the garden of Eden? It would have been so easy to avoid all the disaster and imperfection if that tree didn't even exist to begin with. But the reason why God put that tree in the garden of Eden was because God respects our free will. God is so mighty and powerful that he was actually able to create people with free will. That's something that only God can do. Scientists and engineers could never create a computer or a machine that would truly have a free will of its own.

[Bulgarianspirit]

Bruh that didn't even happen. Trees of knowledge, Adam and Eve, fairy tales man. Death is a lie, you just change suits, you are god, playing with yourself over and over again. This topic is silly. Until you realize you are god you shouldn't post silly dogma D;

Have you ever experienced death? Can you even imagine not being conscious? You see people are scared because they imagine a dark room or something of the sort. True death doesn't exist because you are consciousness itself, you cannot not be conscious you see, These fairy tales hold humanity from discovering their true belief and spirituality.  People have killed each other over fake gods, who they thought they should worship, while your true self doesn't care if you worship it or not, IT IS YOU.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Bulgarianspirit

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Bulgarianspirit said:

Bruh that didn't even happen. Trees Adam and Eve, fairy tales man. Death is a lie, you just change suits, you are god, playing with yourself over and over again. This topic is silly. Until you realize you are god you shouldn't post silly dogma D;

It's not bs if you believe in it

also it's a nice story with many layers which doesn't need to be taken literally

 

for example some groups of people (luciferians?) think that the snake was actually on our side and showing us the light

then there's another story that that there was another woman first before eve named lilith

Edited November 19, 2020 by PurpleTree