The self-indulgence of spiritual work

[Cosmin_Visan]

20 hours ago, Origins said:

 

@Cosmin_Visan never even argued against those ideas, if you re-read his initial post you'll clearly see that he's pointing at the shallowness of peoples thinking not necessarily at the validity of those ideas.

Yes, I'm not denying those ideas. I believe they are true. I'm only pointing the fact that people stop there as if they are the complete truth. Like for example, yes, we are all the same Self, but from this to just reject the individuality of our current consciousnesses is an inadequate step. It doesn't work to say "individuality is just an illusion". Yeah, ok, but you still need to explain that illusion. And even the word "illusion" is unfit, since from each individual consciousness point of view, she is an independent entity, she's real, so is not even an illusion. These things need to be explained. Again, "the world is just a dream" is just a metaphor that an idealist would use towards a materialist in order to make him realize the existence of consciousness. This is the only utility of this sentence. But once you realize that consciousness is all there is, it becomes an empty statement, because you still need to explain the structure of the dream. And if you've done some intellectual work on the problem, you realize that is not at all "just a dream", but is more like Donald Hoffman says, an evolutive world created by interactions between consciousnesses. You have consciousnesses that compete and each of them bring into existence new qualia that can give them an advantage over other consciousnesses. And this "arms race" of qualia is what ultimately built the world. And this war of subjectivities is what gives objectivity to the world. Is what maintains the Moon on the sky even where you are not looking, is what gives materiality to the world.

As you (plural) can see, things can be quite different than the flower power ideas of "oh, is just a dream". Nope. Is more complicated than that.

[Cosmin_Visan]

18 hours ago, Origins said:

Can't the commonality between peoples experiences be correlated with potential shared group think about what psychedelic's are meant to produce as well?

This is also an important point, the misinterpretation of the experience. For example the "all-knowing" part of the experience. I would interpret this in a different manner. I believe that psychedelics' true effect, let's say like ayahuasca, is dissociation. And we can see this in the ayahuasca images that can be found on the internet. People might tend to interpret those beautiful images as an expansion of consciousness. But I see a totally different thing there. I see consciousness dissociation. Consciousness loses the ability to unify qualia in coherent ways, so it will randomly unify them, putting eyes in the middle of the hands instead of the face, etc. So if this is the real effect of ayahuasca, then the "all-knowing" part of the experience is to be expected to be produced by the same effect. And here is how: consciousness getting dissociated, it will be left only with the eternal Self, which among its properties is also the eternal faculty of Understanding. So you are left with Understanding on its own, with no network of concepts associated to it based on which to make rational evaluations of the truth or falsehood of a certain sentence. Understanding being left on its own, it will only have itself to understand, so it will do that, it will understand itself. Being all there is left to be understood, of course that by understanding itself, Understanding will feel as if it understood everything, because after all, it really is everything that is left. So of course it will feel as if it is all-knowing. But is just a trivial effect of consciousness dissociation. And this can be proved even further. Ask any "all-knowing" guy to tell you what he knows now. He will not be able to tell you anything. He will only be able to give a flower-power answer: "Brooo... I simply knew everything!". Well... yeah... except that "everything" is contextual. When you know nothing, it feels as if you know everything. No big deal.

So, as you (plural) can see, there can be lots of alternative ways of interpreting the psychedelics experiences, and they are not even remotely flower-power.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Cosmin_Visan

[Adamq8]

@Cosmin_Visan I think when it comes to psychedelics you lubricate your mind who is otherwise pretty rigid and it opens up the mind to different possibilitys, but also on psychedelics you can become directly aware of awareness itself and it can recognize its own eternal nature.

Like for me on my trips i recognized that "imagination" is awareness way of creating a world. 

But awareness itself can't really point to itself other then a deep understanding of what it is.

It was like a wake up, like really waking up, like oh yeah I just forget that I was this awareness and iam immortal, even in deep sleep thats awareness without any objective things that it concieves of.

So even if we suppose that when you die it will be like deep sleep, awareness is still there and will always be there, either as a finite perspective or as its original state,  infinity. 

I also think that psychedelics shows you that conciousness is capable of some radical states, for example people on salvia turns into a table or a glass of orange juice.

It shows that conciousness can take on an infinite of different objects and points of view, like an infinite clay. 

So awareness in my experience is totally empty and nothingness and it is not even a thing, cause it has zero objective qualites, and in order to experience itself it needs to objectivfy its self as it self.

Cause awareness is always there just different states.

Awareness takes on a "mind" in order to create its world, and it splits itself of into an infinite variety of creatures and things, which in turn keep the world rigid and locked in.

So yeah I think we got 1 conciousness but within it there is a infinite amount of points of view, so I think we are creating the world together using our conciousness and conciousness registers everything that happens in it, cause it is pure knowing in and of it self

[Origins]

@Cosmin_Visan I'll add some more to this later but as a whole: Many people want to cash in fake cheques into the bank of understanding their own psychology, what they don't realise is that they're just accumulating a load of debt for themselves and others they'll have to pay off for years to come while also creating psychological inflation that'll make their words less and less valuable overtime.

That's what happens when people are unwilling to admit or unable to resolve the dissonance that relates to the gap that exists between individual and collective consciousness, they'd rather just put a coat of paint over the former and look morally superior in the latter, morality by many here is seen relativistically when in reality its just been replaced by their "spirituality" that's explained by whatever drawings they want to paint on the blank canvas of life rather than with any proper reasoning, which is fine as an individual route, it becomes problematic though just as government does when you try to take the collectivist route. However the seeds of innocent gullibility are already planted in millions of peoples minds so just as easy it is for government to infringe upon others boundaries people in spirituality do a similar thing towards others.

This isn't to create an oil spill in the river of spirituality or the people within it, but rather to describe an emerging demographic in the context of the culture of that word, which is its own subject. Many points you've noted tie into the birth of compensatory spiritual narcissism born out of being a square peg trying to fit into the round whole of society which is its own topic I'll touch on at least briefly, otherwise "the whole world is a dream" is just as useful of an idea as "the whole world is a mystery", it clouds responsibility, deludes the subject and the individual, disengages the perceived need for individual agency and removes the incentive for generating or that you can even create real world change that has any meaning. The only difference between this and nihilism is that dream-fever has a bow on it and some Christmas lights.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Origins

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Cosmin_Visan said:

the world is just a dream" is just a metaphor that an idealist would use towards a materialist in order to make him realize the existence of consciousness

The world is only a dream is a recurring mistical experience, when you realize the nothingness you perceive that the reality, or "maya" like is sayed in the ancient traditions, is being created in this exactly moment, and have not real substance, like a dream. Of course "dream" or "real" are just concepts, what is, is. Spirituality could be reduced to: forget all and get the direct experience. But always when the ego come back , have the need of explaining what was perceived. And it's not "flower power" at all

Edited November 18, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[Origins]

@Adamq8 @Cosmin_Visan @Breakingthewall There's still a lot of points I've got to get to but one very fine point I want to highlight in this moment is the sheer lack of differentiation there is behind elaborating on the constraints of what determines whether a realisation will be made or not made. For any realisation made by any agent, why have I heard no single person describe their experience in the context of the limits of their capacities? Instead many fall for religious quarrying digging up stones of truth that they label as "absolute" when the very experience itself is limited by their capacities whether it be by their brain or whatever else. Just because your insight happened to occur after you consumed psychedelic's doesn't mean you get to call it absolute, your brain runs at a certain speed, processing power, not to mention psychedelic's never showing any credence whatsoever as it concerns their ability to share absolute truths. Just because other people had similar experiences doesn't at all lend it anymore credibility, human collective fallibility has been documented for centuries from Nazi's to determining whether someone is guilty or innocent by whether they float to the top of a river after weighing their body down with stones (if they don't float it means the Lord didn't wish to save them or something to that effect). Their label of absolute truth has just been stuck on like a bumper sticker on a car in front of you as it drives through the red light of reason because somehow after you take a psychedelic you've now been granted special privileges to escape the same battery of questions of credibility that should be placed before anyone making a claim about existence. 

Let's get more nuanced here then, so what exactly determines who gets to have what kind of insight and why and why can't those insights and overall changes be explained by the limits of their own capacity to experience, experience (as explained above - processing speed, etc, analogously or otherwise)? Why are the limits and subsequent skepticality in human perception about ordinary life, i.e. was that a ghost or a real person, not borrowed when examining what it was that was experienced during a psychedelic experience?

Because it feels more real? Well a black and white film feels more real than radio, a colour film feels more real than a black and white film and virtual reality is feeling increasingly more real compared to colour film, so what's your point? Feeling more real has nothing to do with reality, just the ease by which one can be convinced that fantasy is reality.

I want to see how intelligence, creativity, personality, past experiences and many more variables can be correlated with the quality of the psychedelic experience before I draw any conclusions. I have no doubt that since all of these are correlated with nearly all things concerning the human experience that they no doubt play a part in the psychedelic experience, as such, it makes the entire process flawed because any limit defies any arguing for infinity. The brain was simply not build to process infinity, if it was, you'd be off building and inventing things we've never imagined before, for with your infinity you could well, do anything, because the relationship between perception and creativity is incredibly high. If you can perceive it you can create it, but only to the extent of your ability to perceive. I won't quote him here even though he may comment but this is something Leo will eventually have to come to terms with if he wants to confront this topic with greater intellectual weight. OR not, he's not obligated to of course, in my opinion he's irresponsible, not for believing what he wants to, but influencing people to believe what he believes.

In saying that there's an inordinate amount of absolute holes in peoples belief in their psychedelic absolute truths for anything to be convincing yet so to be trying to aggressively convince others of those absolutes is nothing short of irresponsible and boundary breaking. Have your individual beliefs, its your dream to dream so have your dream there's just no need to interrupt other peoples dreams if you believed so much in your dream just leave other peoples dreams alone.

Perception equals misperception to the extent we don't have absolute perception, of which we're an extremely far way off, these perceptions of reality are just as worthy as a duck talking about their mystical experiences. We only put human perception on a pedestal because we're all we have to look up to, but there's orders of magnitude greater to be imagined if we properly look at capability outside the context of present human capabilities. There's no reason to assume that everything perceived as "absolute" along the lines of what people are talking about here may be found to be obsolete in 100 years time just as many other things have found that course. Which is why I'm of the perspective to follow the patterns of history more than the patterns of the present time. Perhaps in 100 years time we'll invent a far superior psychedelic that we take after we have augmented our abilities to far higher levels thus revealing far more accurate insights.

[Adamq8]

@Origins I hear what you are saying, but the thing is tho, all you have ever experienced is experience itself, or we can say all you ever known is awareness itself cause you can't find something outside of it, so to hold things about reality which does not correlate with ur experience is a belief.

And iam in no way claiming that I know the highest truth, but from what I've gathered through out experience is that it has infinite potential to be anyway it wants, or awareness has infinite potential to actualize a world or reality.

So if we can conclude that experience is all that you will ever know, and when an experience is so radical and different then you are used to, like high on a psychedelic, you see the potential that there is for conciousness to concieve of things unimaginable to the limited form you now embody.

So lets say I experience for example on psychedelics, that everything you thought you knew about reality was wrong, you are not a limited finite body, you are that awareness which holds the body and the limited mind inside of it.

It is safe to conclude that there is an infinite amount of different states of conciousness.

One can be the state of which you are aware of the infinite imagination of conciousness. 

Another one can be the infinite peace and love awareness can be.

Another one can be the nothingness and emptyness which this world truly is.

And by no means tho is one state of conciousness the truth.

The truth tho through all of our experience whether sober or high or sleeping, is that conciousness is everything and is creating everything and this you experience, and there is no separate entity who has an experience,  it is conciousness experiencing itself in an infinite variety of ways.

And your perception and awareness is nothing but conciousness itself.

So perception and sensing and thoughts is a configuration of awareness in order to hold this world as rigid as it is, but conciousness has infinite potential of different states.

Cause the truth is that awareness is truly a Zero.

So maybe in 100 years we have a psychedelics that lets you explore different things.

And the thing is tho, the thing ive realized is that you think that you have a free will and you concieve of things in the world, but there is no entity there, its just awareness doing its thing and that is you, you are the screen and the movie,  but at the ultimate truth you are but a screen.

And in "my" case i have several insights both sober and in other states that awareness =existence=truth.

But we are using language and this stuff is prior to language,  but one thing is clear, all you have ever experienced is ur own mind, and how that mind works is different on everybody. 

But one universal truth we all know if we look is : IAM.

And if people on this forum have experienced "GOD" mode on psychedelics and even "sober" through contemplation and so on, there is a truth to it, atleast when you experience it yourself. But this does not mean that its the only truth.

The only truth is existence itself. 

Which is awareness. 

The mystics have claimed the same thing through out history, reality is infinite conciousness aka = GOD.

When you know you know thats all I can say about it.

But im def open to more things about conciousness, but what has been seen can never be unseen either.

And if you have not experienced such a radical state then you wont think its real

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Adamq8

[Origins]

@Adamq8 try listing just 100 before you get to an infinite, when you get to 100 try for 1000, increase the zero's one by one from there (coming up with all the various states up to that number) before you jump intuitively to infinity. Infinity is orders of magnitude more than you've so far shared so far including Leo so neither of you have any credibility as it concerns using that term. I appreciate your perspectives though, its good to see that you're at least trying to conceal them to your own experience, feel free to share your experience as freely as you wish, just be mindful of what I mentioned before regarding anthropomorphism and my implicit statements about the neuroplastic tradeoff of having one state at the cost of another.

@Breakingthewall I've encountered no one in the field of spirituality so far that adequately elaborates on their use sufficiently nor on the academic use of the term ego or even if so well enough to be able to have a credible opinion there. When someones building a plane, we tend to really, really care whether they have an engineering degree or at least whether they have built planes before not just successfully but without ANY errors but when it comes to spiritual topics, well, invite Fred from the bar down the road to talk about his psychedelic trip. It makes the whole subject almost completely intellectually corrupt. What are the standards people who think they're experts in the field here follow exactly? This stinks so bad it makes my strawberry jam smell. Strawberry jam as far as I'm aware is never meant to smell, or I've just never encountered such, just add in Fred's toe nail and I'm sure it will.

As far as I'm aware, the way the term ego is thrown around these circles is at least a few football stadiums away from any touchdowns of screaming spirituality fans (as it concerns accurately describing and relating to it).

Edited November 18, 2020 by Origins

[Origins]

@Adamq8 Can you get to 1 million (and prove it - regarding say states of consciousness)? Seriously if you could get to 1 million I'll give you $1000 AUS. But even after the $1000 you have to fathom that 1 million is still separated by 99 more million from 100 million, 900 million more from 1 billion, 999 billion from 1 trillion and that 1 trillion is just 1 tiny spec of quadrillion. So infinity, its a nonsense term if you can't produce the numbers that are its extremely distant cousins (million, trillion billion and up from there), you couldn't even invite them over for a beer to infinity so neither yourself or Leo, well it makes no sense to use words like that if you can't even earn the $1000.

[Adamq8]

@Origins It would take alot of time and ofcourse and not even sure I can find that many, but if we can say that being hungry is a different state of conciousness then being full.

Sad 

Glad

Angry 

Hungry 

And so forth,

But lets say the vision that you can get on psychedelics, like I saw different worlds produced, like 1 world in 1 sec and it stretched beyond beyond beyond both up and down and left and right. 

This is just one experience on one trip.

A different were when on my lsd trip i recognized that everything I thought was life didnt really exist, spirituality and everything is just imagination as well, this forum is a creation in my head and so forth, and the thing is my girlfriend who is not interested in this things woke up at the same time as me, she knew she was god and I was to, and then she slowly turned into me and we sat beside eachother and she turned into me and when I moved she moved, I hugged myself, she was no longer there, and then my living room turned into a black hole almost, everything got sucked in into it except me and my girl but she was me, I was scared to death srsly.

Then awareness vibrated in it self and it woke up, it knew it was god and immortal and it is all alone. 

This was the most fucked up thing ive ever experienced, I realized i imagined my parents as well and that I have always existed as this nothingness and It got NO where to go.

I dont know how you explain that away.

Hallucination in the brain? Yeah well your everyday life is a hallucination in ur brain as well. The brain itself is nothing but conciousness. 

I recognized that conciousness is only empty awareness,  it is zero dimension and it does not even exist yet it is existence itself, it sorta dreams existence into being.

If we leave awareness as it is, it is NOTHING.

It is scary to recognize that life is a hallucination and eveything that you see is empty,  this is happening inside a void.

This void is awareness as formless.

I saw and felt it holding my entire visual field and the world as I experienced, it was nothing, void.

It is like everything dissapears but what is it that remains? Awareness, and it is eternal.

Awareness knows itself.

I can't give this experience justice by using words, it is a knowing that hits you like a ton of bricks lol ?

And ive head multiple OBEs and they are also fucking insane, conciousness is projecting itself.

Like dreams, ur conciousness dreams up a world and characters and it is as real as this world.

Ive seen and felt the potential conciousness has for different worlds and realitys.

You intuite ur infinite nature, there is no end ro what conciousness can produce, atleast in my own experiences, and infinity is a proper word for it, even if it was not infinite,  what would limit it to not being infinite? Nothing is outside of awareness, so infinity is something it can hold, but ultimatly awareness is no thing and no shape or form or anything like it, it is blankness but it exists. 

I know it sounds weird but

Cheers m8!

[Adamq8]

@Origins I it is infinite because its zero, the universe,  time , space, experience,  everything it holds. So it is itself not something objective and it imagines time.

So it is eternal.

This you can know and become concious of.

And we can say that, well yeah thats just an experience or hallucination,  yeah well everything you have ever known is a hallucination/experience, experience is the only game in town. 

Creation as well.

Thats why we can say that infinite conciousness prior to imagining a world is infinite and unlimited. 

And you can become this pure awareness for a while and thats when all the understanding and knowing hits you

[Origins]

But @Adamq8 , can you come up with 1 million though? I don't see the sentence that leads on to conclude that you can jump to infinity. If you can just admit this that would be great otherwise don't sweat it. I'm not going to place pressure on you its okay. If you can come up with 1000, I'll even give you $1000, bare in mind that's 999,999 less than what I was asking for before and not even 1/1,000,000,000,000 of what infinity could be. These are basic statements I'm making that if asked about regarding another topic you didn't have a bias towards you'd probably be able to agree with me, there aren't an infinite number of termites eating Fred's home that's why he's at the bar drinking while taking psychedelic's it just looks that way because to Fred "there's just so many!" plus Fred is intoxicated.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Origins

[Breakingthewall]

@Origins

your skepticism is positive. We should not believe anything or dogmatize. The problem is that we are not talking about building airplanes, but about something that cannot be objectively demonstrated, or even rationalized. intelligence and reason are essential to avoid being deceived, but at a moment you have to let them go. the good news is that there is a tool for that: psychedelics. once you break the armor of reason you can judge whether what you have experienced is drug-induced fantasy, or reality. once you open up to this, you see that many things that are said around here make sense, so when you read ideas that you have not experienced you give them some credibility. all this for the only thing that serves is to prepare your mind for a greater openness

[Adamq8]

@Origins I have experienced what i can percieved as infinite,  but cant knlw that for sure but my being did know, the mind just cant grasp it afterwards, but you are right as well, infinity is endless so I wont be able to.

Tho I wanna ask you if you if have any experience with psychedelics? And if you do how many trips and so forth?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Adamq8

[Origins]

@Adamq8 Okay so you're saying you've experienced an infinite amount, wouldn't you still be experiencing them if they were infinite? I have't yet had experience with psychedelic's and I don't plan to until I've organised proper experimental protocols but I will follow through once I'm satisfied I'm adequately strategically setup there. 

If you say you've experienced what you can perceive as infinite you must have experienced quite a lot, could you be able to list even just 100? 

This is the problem with describing things in terms of how we subjectively feel when it comes to numbers, its okay to say "like it was infinite" it is not adequate intellectually to say "it is infinite" if we're being precise. 

Infinite is a fine term for artistic expression, not for when we're trying to make objective statements of reality which is what many people try to do in spirituality, which is also fine, but if the person making the statements wants intelligent people to take their claims seriously they ought to have intelligent reasons for believing so. That seems pretty reasonable to me. For example if I told you that I just had a spiritual awakening 5 seconds ago that told me humanity has to destroy itself right now and that you HAVE to believe me or else you're satan, would you take me seriously if I gave you no intelligent reasons for believing so? I highly doubt it, people are easily swayed by cognitive biases like bandwagon effect and so on when they're not aware to these sorts of things.

 @Breakingthewall I'm already completely free from all the things that people have claimed psychedelic's offers, all I'm doing here is critiquing peoples perspectives relative to what should be reasonable to accept. There is zero reason for me to equate someone else's experience as something I should go on as it concerns something like the presently unobservable realm of consciousness and existence as a whole just as much as there is zero reason for others to believe in things that I state simply because I put psychedelic experience before I state the experience analogous to the above example I gave. 

This isn't going anywhere though I can see that and that's because the flaws I've noted speak for themselves just that no bodies picked up the slack to talk about them. I appreciate both of your perspectives regardless. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Origins

[Adamq8]

@Origins I get you brother and it is good to question this claims, but the only way to really see if what we are talking about is true is to use psychedelics yourself, i cant really explain the infinity i felt but it went on forever until i opened my eyes and then my room melted instead haha ?

The thing is you cant really explain how the experience is, not properly anyhow, I would recommend starting out with LSD and use it like 10 times before moving on to dmt and so forth, then you will see what mind can do, it is insane.

Like I said when I got a hit on the imagination possible in conciousness,  I called it infinite imagination cause of the different states and "worlds" it produced, I cant see where the limit on it would be? And what would limit it to be anyway it wants?

This states of conciousness is so radicaly different from ur state now that you cant comprehend the different experience it produces. 

I think psychedelics is awesome when it comes to metaphysics investigation. 

I looked my self in the mirror and my body and face changed into 1000 different faces in just a fel minutes and it even became and ape and a reptile it was insane for me.

But u are right i cant name infinitly many different states and so forth, tho I can intuite in those states that infinity is totally real and true.

I appreciate this conversation mate u should know that

[Adamq8]

@Origins The thing is that a psychedelic experience recontextualise what conciousness/mind/experience is, and it shows its true color when you have an total ego death.

You die and turn into pure conciousness it feels like, and conciousness is being/knowing and at those states it refocuses on its self even tho awareness is always itself, but I would claim that awareness can know everything about itself, but not when the ego character is there to limit your focus down.

 

[Origins]

@Adamq8 I can imagine "infinity like", its not difficult for me. I don't believe psychedelic's are going to do anything for me other than their neuroplastic potential benefit, this is simply because I've been to so many places in my mind imaginatively that you wouldn't believe which is why I really think people who take psychedelic's ought to explore their mind more rather than just put the power of their imagination up for adoption by drug use. Moreover, extensive use hasn't been well documented, so I'll be doing proper clinical studies with my own tools and relevant personnel as it suits proper standards. At present, these are recreationally taken and recreationally documented by most persons which means there's a hyper-indexed sum of information yet to be uncovered regarding psychedelic's to date. Informationally that means we're in the gold rush age of psychedelic's and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon. The quality and degree that people need to improve their standards around their exploration is greater than any infinity they've ever imagined, and that makes sense, if you're saying there's an "infinity" that goes together with the ABC's of psychedelic's that means there's a seemingly inordinate amount of creativity needed to capture said creativity as decisively as possible.

I'm not at all amazed by what you or anyone else has stated and I mean that with no offence I just honestly think people have put way too much stock in drugs here because they haven't put enough stock in the capabilities of their own minds, I've experienced all those things you've mentioned without drugs, its pretty ordinary to me now, there's nothing "new under the sun". It's fun and I'm sure the experience will have its kicks, but there wil be nothing new under the sun for me, even any so called "bad trip", the likelihood of any bad trip being bad for me is extremely low. I'll be doing it just for the brain benefits up to the predicted and experimented possibilities there and no further.

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Origins said:

there's nothing "new under the sun".

Well...try and after you could have opinion. Have it before to try is not the most wise I think. Looks that you really want to demonstrate yourself and to others that psychedelic are a foolish. They aren't. If you don't want to try, I think you should let the door open to the possibility that they are that that people is talking about, maybe more

[Origins]

Although I've appreciated our back and fourth and hope you continue to learn from your own personal psychedelic and spiritual experiences in the way that you wish to I think we're getting a bit off track here though @Adamq8 I don't think we're going to make anymore ground so we should just keep to the initial thread title, though at least for me I think I've revealed enough cracks there as well and I'm intuiting @Cosmin_Visan's is probably at the very least closing in on a similar conclusion to myself regarding the debunked affairs here. Unfortunately this is just human nature Cosmin, it's an uncontrollable dragon when the wind underneath the wings pushing the dragon in the sky is human fallibility. This is just all we have until we have something better. This forum serves a purpose for helping a person where you can (including even yourself) and where they're able to see the benefit but as it concerns generating any cohesive sweeping wind to change the direction of the dragon to an entirely renovated direction seems unlikely, but that's fine. This is just how things are. For this kind of dragon you have to just let people have their cool-aid and even encourage them to drink it because there's no foreseeable way out. It's kind of like watching the national grand final of a football match with some old football friends where you have to pretend to enjoy it because you've out grown it. The pretending is fine, its natural, we're all just adapting to the moment here and we all have to find our own path in the end. Unless there's anything else you seriously wanted to examine here, that'll be all from me Cosmin all the best to you and to @Breakingthewall (by the way I never said explicitly nor implicitly inferred that psychedelic's were at all foolish, its just a matter of the quality of the wine, the occasion in which its going to be had, the manner in which its going to be drunk and the precondition of the persons physical well being).