Posted November 13, 2020 I've noticed that majority of the people here, along with I assume Leo, believe in the infinite mind idea that hes talked about in several videos. Is this not simply taking one idea over another? Another ideological approach? Sure we can experience it directly or come to understandings but at the end of the day how do we know that's the final destination? With the infinity of everything it seems a lot more likely that its barely relevant. Its just an idea. So is my idea that its an idea. Everything's probably bullshit and not real. So why should we believe anything? Isn't it simply better to play this video game out in an enjoyable way? Rather then pretend we understand its coding and its purpose? Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 @Nthnl its just an idea for you until you awaken. Right now from your POV its just a claim i am making or leo is making. Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, Inliytened1 said: @Nthnl its just an idea for you until you awaken. Right now from your POV its just a claim i am making or leo is making. I see what your saying. But what i mean is, say i awaken. Why are we assuming thats it? That thats the final done deal? It seems a step higher then other beliefs and understandings, but is it not ignorant to just assume its the highest? Or that in the grand scale of all possible awakenings that its even relevant at all? Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, dflores321 said: The problem with ideas is that it is a self contained bubble of confusion, we fuel it thinking that we will find an answer but that's exactly what the mind wants. The mind is an illusion machine, keep fucking with it and the wheel of confusion will spin faster and faster. What I've been learning recently is to let go of that and just be. But in order to explain being to people, we have to use concepts so that they have a beacon to follow. Just because people use concepts here doesn't mean they believe in them. It's like we're all playing with toys but we know they're just toys. Why are we assuming that ideas are the only illusion? Why aren't feelings an illusion. Why aren't awakenings an illusion. Were just putting our faith in different vessels. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 @Nthnl No these are facets of the Absolute. You can become directly conscious of the nature of reality. Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 (edited) @Nthnl Yeah don't believe in what they're saying. None of us should pretend to understand something to "get with it". I haven't tried psychedelics, but Leo's narrative or teaching is that psychedelics will take you further than anything else can and that you can encounter these facets from using them. The infinite mind thing, I kind of get it when it comes to the manifestation and creation aspect of things. 5 minutes ago, Nthnl said: I see what your saying. But what i mean is, say i awaken. Why are we assuming thats it? That thats the final done deal? It seems a step higher then other beliefs and understandings, but is it not ignorant to just assume its the highest? Or that in the grand scale of all possible awakenings that its even relevant at all? I think you're pointing out a mentality thing. We all have to use concepts, and concepts do have a meaning. It's just that when you say something again and again and talk about it it becomes an abstraction rather than direct consciousness. And the only way to combat that is vigilance of yourself and what you see. Bear in mind that at least some of the people here are probably vigilant and watching, and talking from direct experience, and are aware of the limitations of the concepts. The majority though? Probably not. But that's not the case anywhere. Edited November 13, 2020 by lmfao Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, Inliytened1 said: @Nthnl No these are facets of the Absolute. You can become directly conscious of the nature of reality. How do you know that they are facets of the absolute. Why are we just assuming that these are not simply another better constructed illusion? How do we know becoming directly conscious of the nature of reality is actually what we think it is? Everyone seems so sure without a doubt that it may just be another illusion. I find it more likely an illusion. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 1 minute ago, lmfao said: @Nthnl Yeah don't believe in what they're saying. None of us should pretend to understand something to "get with it". I haven't tried psychedelics, but Leo's narrative or teaching is that psychedelics will take you further than anything else can and that you can encounter these facets from using them. The infinite mind thing, I kind of get it when it comes to the manifestation and creation aspect of things. I think you're pointing out a mentality thing. We all have to use concepts, and concepts do have a meaning. It's just that when you say something again and again and talk about it it becomes an abstraction rather than direct consciousness. And the only way to combat that is vigilance of yourself and what you see. Bear in mind that some of the people here are probably indeed vigilant and watching, and talking from direct experience, and are aware of the limitations. What i mean is, even the highest understand we seem to have here, direct consciousness. Why do we think direct consciousness, or what we understand it to be, is real. Why do we just think this is the ultimate understanding, the ultimate goal. Is it not just as likely to be another illusion entirely? Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 @Nthnl haha! this the problem of the black hole - if i have entered the black hole i have seen or become conscious of the Absolute. But now i can't share that with you or pass that onto you because light cannot escape a black hole. The only way you will know is if you yourself enter the black hole. Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, Inliytened1 said: @Nthnl haha! this the problem of the black hole - if i have entered the black hole i have seen or become conscious of the Absolute. But now i can't share that with you or pass that onto you because light cannot escape a black hole. The only way you will know is if you yourself enter the black hole. your missing my point all together. I get that you have had an experience. You, from that experience, now believe you have this deep understanding of ultimate reality and think you understand the universe for what it is. To even assume the absolutes existence at all seems ridiculous when time and time again we find another way of understanding everything around us. Is this mindset not the same as any religious practitioner? "you just dont understand what i understand" Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 (edited) Quote What i mean is, even the highest understand we seem to have here, direct consciousness. Why do we think direct consciousness, or what we understand it to be, is real. Why do we just think this is the ultimate understanding, the ultimate goal. Is it not just as likely to be another illusion entirely? Because consciousness (is the same as)/(means) all that is. This is about truth. And truth is about what is (which is a tautology). What is is just in your consciousness. All your thoughts and ideas are occurring in consciousness. This work isn't about conceptual knowledge and theories, which you seem to be equating what we're saying with. It's about deconstructing it all and seeing what is for what it is. These concepts are all tautological and self-referential, just pick a word. So there's no conceptual ground 0, and we don't pretend there is a ground 0 and that we've encapsulated the truth in a concept. You'll get it if you get it. "Direct consciousness" is a pretty direct way to describe the tautology. As I described before, the concepts like "infinite mind" are just pointers and dont encapsulate truth. Finger pointing to the moon Edited November 13, 2020 by lmfao Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Nthnl said: your missing my point all together Or maybe you are missing mine! Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, lmfao said: Because consciousness (is the same as)/(means) all that is. This is about truth. And truth is about what is (which is a tautology). What is is just in your consciousness. All your thoughts and ideas are occurring in consciousness. These concepts are all tautological and self-referential, just pick a word. You'll get it if you get it. That's the thing, i do get it. I've got that for a while. But now I've thought "Why do we think any of that is accurate?" Sure its a better understanding then what science, religion, etc provides. But why do we think its true? Its the same rudimentary belief people have in religion and otherwise, just on a higher level. Truth probably doesn't exists, consciousness probably doesn't exists. This all seems much more likely to be bullshit then fact. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 (edited) Truth is another way of saying "what is". What is is what is in your consciousness. Since consciousness points to your experience right now. And experience is all that is. These strange-loops and circles go on forever with thinking. None of this can be logically explained and brought to you through thinking. It doesn't matter if you use the term "direct consciousness" or not, that's immaterial to you grasping things. What's being grasped isn't a concept, so it doesn't matter if you reject that term. For some people that label points them in the right direction, for you maybe it doesn't. The concept and labels are tools. I think you might still be lost in confusing this for a belief system. It's the classic issue of map vs territory, finger pointing to the moon, etc. also the hard problem of "the absolute vs the relative" Edited November 13, 2020 by lmfao Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said: Or maybe you are missing mine! Your point is simply that I have to directly experience what you have to know that what you believe to be true is indeed true. What im saying is that there are countless people who 100% believe in all kinds of things for all sorts of reasons. Just because you believe to be aware of some ultimate truth, doesnt mean its true, it means your being believes it to be so. So why are we treating this any differently then religion or science or anything else. Its just another level of proof or belief or understanding, its not any more accurate, just different. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, lmfao said: Truth is another way of saying "what is". What is is what is in your consciousness. Since consciousness points to your experience right now. And experience is all that is. None of this can be logically explained and brought to you through thinking. It doesn't matter if you use the term "direct consciousness or not". I think you might still be lost in confusing this for a belief system. It's the classic issue of map vs territory, finger pointing to the moon, etc Your missing my point as well. Take everything you just said. "experience is all that is." in particular. How do you know that experience is all that is. or that experience exists at all, or that anything is anything. For us to assume anything is real or fake seems just as ridiculous as most people here see religious belief. How do we know we are actually looking at landscape rather then just a more accurate map? Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 l 5 minutes ago, Nthnl said: Your point is simply that I have to directly experience what you have to know that what you believe to be true False. Right there is your mistake. The Absolute is not a belief. I cannot explain this to you because language is finite. Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Nthnl said: How do you know that experience is all that is. or that experience exists at all, or that anything is anything. For us to assume anything is real or fake seems just as ridiculous as most people here see religious belief. Like I said, the words dont contain the truth. They are pointers. This is the black hole where concepts fall apart and we're doing our best to communicate even though the concepts are what we're trying to transcend. But instead you don't seem to get that, and think that we claim the concept is the truth. This work is about transcending beliefs. Everything being written is a concept. This is communication. Your logic taken to it's conclusion would mean you would criticise all forms of speech and communication, say there's no point to any of it. I could turn this right around on you, and criticise everything you say as a belief. You're strawmannirg because you don't understand the paradoxical difference and unity between the domain of the relative vs the absolute, or of map vs territory. Edited November 13, 2020 by lmfao Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, Inliytened1 said: l False. Right there is your mistake. The Absolute is not a belief. I cannot explain this to you. call it what ever you will belief or other wise. Why do is your understanding correct and proper? Why is your experience of the ultimate truth as you understand it to be not just another illusion. Why cant awareness also be fooled as easily as anything else. I feel like everyone is pretending that the mind is the only flawed tool in our tool belt. awareness, understanding, experience, and everything in between. Why are they things to rely on? Why is your understanding accurate? Again you can say because you have to experience it, but thats just the same as "have faith". This seems to be just a higher form of religious logic. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 13, 2020 Just now, lmfao said: Like I said, the words dont contain the truth. They are pointers. This is the black hole where concepts fall apart and we're doing our best to communicate even though the concepts are what we're trying to transcend. But instead you don't seem to get that, and think that we claim the concept is the truth. This work is about transcending beliefs. Everything being written is a concept. This is communication. Your logic taken to it's conclusion would mean you would criticise all forms of speech and communication, say there's no point to any of it. I could turn this right around on you, and criticise everything you say as a belief. Exactly thats my point, what im saying is just as bullshit as what any of you are saying. So why are you all assuming yours isnt bullshit. Everythings equally true and false, bullshit and otherwise. Thats what im trying to say. Your understandings are equally as impossibly paradoxical as mine. Though doth not want these hands! - Jesus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
