How do you deal with the Absolute vs Relative paradox?

[RedLine]

If you are aware enough, you realize everything is Perfect as it is, Good, Love, whatever you want to call it.

 

But at the same time, it looks like there are suffering and that there are things better than others. For example, If you are in a position to prevent the torture and rape of a child, you would probably stop it because you believe the child is going to suffer and be traumatized during his lifetime.. You are being hypocritical if you say that everything is perfect but at the same time you think that it is better to avoid the rape of a child than not to do it. If you still arguing that everything is Perfect but there are degrees of perfection then you are contradicition yourself because "degrees of" implies "better than" so no everything Perfect.

 

The very idea of being a spiritual teacher goes against this principle because spiritual teachers admit that 1. There are people who suffer. 2. With their teachings they could alleviate that suffering. That is, they believe that it is better not to suffer than to suffer.

 

The only master I know who is coherent with that principle is Ramana Maharsi. He was literally willing to die in a cave, if monks hadn´t there and feed him he would have died. He responded to what was asked of him, but did not take any action to help the people, everything was organized by his disciples and he simply responded kindly.

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by RedLine

[The0Self]

Teachers are in the dream. There isn’t actually a dream though. Any “enlightened” teacher is only appearing to teach. There are no teachers. Ramana never taught anything. Have you ever performed self inquiry to its end? Just how many people do you think went through that ordeal? Not many. Anyone who actually did it was going to do it anyway, even if via literal suicide by gunshot to the head, which people do all the time. God would never stop the rape of a child, because there is only infinite everything. Infinity doesn’t just put things into perspective, it destroys any pretense of separation.

[Barbara]

But something being perfect implies imperfection. 

[Osaid]

 

3 minutes ago, Barbara said:

But something being perfect implies imperfection.

The duality between both collapses. As usual

[Someone here]

24 minutes ago, RedLine said:

If you are aware enough, you realize everything is Perfect as it is, Good, Love, whatever you want to call it.

 

But at the same time, it looks like there are suffering and that there are things better than others. 

Perfect is your egoic agenda. PERFECT as an absolute must mean whatever is happening.  there is no contradiction. 

[RedLine]

19 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Perfect is your egoic agenda. PERFECT as an absolute must mean whatever is happening.  there is no contradiction. 

How can you live wit your "egoic agenda" knowing that it is not truth?

 

How can you think "I have to get a job to improve my life", "I have to help my mom to relieve her suffer" thinking that everything is Perfect at the same time,  thinking that suffer is an ilussion, think that there are not good or bad. You are pushing in opposite directions if you have these two perspectives at the same time.

 

This paradox has make me very insecure and block me for years. 

 

29 minutes ago, Barbara said:

But something being perfect implies imperfection. 

What you say does not make sense rationally and does not help to solve the problem. Yes, Reality is not rational bla bla bla, but even if you were enlighten you still operate trough reason. Elightment is transrational, it does not cancal reason. You would still think about what you would cook tomorrow.

 

Maybe it is just metaphysical/non-dual games for you all. It is not for me, it is existencial stuff for me, it hurts. 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by RedLine

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

How can you live wit your "egoic agenda" knowing that it is not truth?

Obviously it is the truth. Whatever is happening is truth. Could it be otherwise? 

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

How can you think "I have to get a job to improve my life", "I have to help my mom to relieve her suffer" thinking that everything is Perfect

Yeah if everything is perfect.. How is it not perfect to do those things? 

 

2 minutes ago, RedLine said:

thinking that suffer is an illusion 

Suffering is not illusion. You misunderstood what absolute perfection means. Obviously it doesn't mean you are constantly blessed out of your brain . It really just means everything is inevitable. Everything here and now is perfectly fine with the universe. It's only not perfectly fine for you. 

[The0Self]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

Suffering is not illusion. You misunderstood what absolute perfection means. Obviously it doesn't mean you are constantly blessed out of your brain . It really just means everything is inevitable. Everything here and now is perfectly fine with the universe. It's only not perfectly fine for you.

Meaningful suffering is an illusion though. But yes, you’re right in that “what is” does not give a fuck about “you.”

[RedLine]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

 

 

Suffering is not illusion. You misunderstood what absolute perfection means. Obviously it doesn't mean you are constantly blessed out of your brain . It really just means everything is inevitable. Everything here and now is perfectly fine with the universe. It's only not perfectly fine for you. 

So, suffer is an illusion. You are contradictig yourself. Think about it. Suffer is desire of change. If everthing is ok as it is now, it means suffer is an illusion.

[Barbara]

@RedLine Oh how come it isn't rational? You only know what light is because you know dark. Only know what good is in comparison to bad. Perfection, high, fast, delicious, smooth, cold, these are all relative terms. They all come from judgment and comparison. From reason. 

[RedLine]

2 minutes ago, Barbara said:

@RedLine Oh how come it isn't rational? You only know what light is because you know dark. Only know what good is in comparison to bad. Perfection, high, fast, delicious, smooth, cold, these are all relative terms. They all come from judgment and comparison. From reason. 

So you are denying essence of reality is Good/Love/Perfection?

That is not what I have experienced, not many others.

Edited November 8, 2020 by RedLine

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, RedLine said:

. If everthing is ok as it is now, it means suffer is an illusion.

No it would just mean that suffering is ok! 

[Barbara]

What does the "essence of reality" means?  

[Nahm]

Perfection. 

 

 

[SilentTears]

From a high conscious state of being of course it’s all perfect. However people do suffer. It’s just a matter of which state of being you are in. Some days you can be in a high conscious place and see the infinite perfection so much that even helping the child is perfection. 
 

A high conscious person understands that lower conscious people do suffer and may want to help said person who is suffering. 
that said, there are different paths to enlightenment. Some people may never move when they are seeing something a lower conscious person may say is “evil” unless they are asked to help and some may move to protect purity. 

whatever happens is already perfect 

Edit: just because your high conscious doesn’t mean you view everything as already perfect. 
I actually go from viewing things as suffering(low conscious), viewing them as perfect(high conscious), then simply being void of those two yet still have a dualistic mindset(higher conscious. 
 

It’s like this. When I’m low conscious I keep a dualistic mindset and view suffering as existing. 
a little higher consciousness I view everything as perfect And keep a non-dual perspective. 
even higher, I take back a dualistic perspective(kinda, it’s different) yet I view both suffering and no suffering. I would say I integrate them both in a high conscious way. This helps both me and others. I connect and understand all points of consciousness here.

Edited November 9, 2020 by SilentTears
Grammar

[Gesundheit]

6 hours ago, RedLine said:

If you are aware enough, you realize everything is Perfect as it is, Good, Love, whatever you want to call it.

This is wrong, but you're still in denial that it's wrong. Why?

6 hours ago, RedLine said:

How do you deal with the Absolute vs Relative paradox?

Simple, I admit that perfection, love, goodness, etc... are all egoic constructs that have no relation to the absolute. Same as it goes for their counterparts; lack, fear, evil, etc... are all egoic constructs that have no relation to the absolute. Another word for it is projection. Depending on your state of consciousness, and if you're not aware of how projection works, you will most likely mistake your state for reality.

[tsuki]

9 hours ago, RedLine said:

You are being hypocritical if you say that everything is perfect but at the same time you think that it is better to avoid the rape of a child than not to do it.

This line of thinking is spiritual bypassing.

Enlightenment is not contrary to taking action in life. It is merely (and ultimately) about seeing what's true. It is founded upon ordinary life and returns to ordinary experience. There are things in your person that are false, fabricated and unnecessary and they usually fall off during awakenings, but there are also the things that are true. It is true that empathy or moral conduct are relative to being human, but you will never survive as anything else. The Absolute needs no survival and you are no more absolute than you are relative.

Ramana did eat, shit and teach.

Edited November 9, 2020 by tsuki

[tsuki]

8 hours ago, RedLine said:

Elightment is transrational, it does not cancal reason. You would still think about what you would cook tomorrow.

Also, you seem to be aware of what transcendence is in relation to reason, but your argument is blind to this understanding in with respect to relativity. Transcendence means more-than-just, not instead-of.

[Nahm]

13 hours ago, RedLine said:

If you are aware enough, you realize everything is Perfect as it is, Good, Love, whatever you want to call it.

Awareness is not a property or possession of an individual. Humans are not aware. A body mind does not produce awareness. When it is recognized awareness is prior to thoughts like I, me, my, mine, you, your...how one creates existential suffering is recognized. 

13 hours ago, RedLine said:

How can you live wit your "egoic agenda" knowing that it is not truth?

It is Truth. All that is, is Truth. A separate self has ever lived. Awareness is prior to thoughts. Meditation is the way. 

Quote

How can you think "I have to get a job to improve my life", "I have to help my mom to relieve her suffer" thinking that everything is Perfect at the same time,  thinking that suffer is an ilussion, think that there are not good or bad. You are pushing in opposite directions if you have these two perspectives at the same time.

This paradox has make me very insecure and block me for years. 

Awareness is aware of awareness. Awareness is aware of thoughts. That there is a paradox, is a thought like ‘there is a tree’. Tree is a label, a thought, not perception. Likewise, only in believing the thoughts I, me, my, mine, you, your, yours, does there seem to be a ‘you’, and then, a ‘paradox’, and then ‘insecurity’. The resolve is letting go, no longer attaching to thoughts which convince there is a separate self(s). 

Quote

What you say does not make sense rationally and does not help to solve the problem.

Meditation reveals there is no problem, because there is no separate self to have it. 

Quote

Yes, Reality is not rational bla bla bla, but even if you were enlighten you still operate trough reason. Elightment is transrational, it does not cancel reason. You would still think about what you would cook tomorrow.

Maybe it is just metaphysical/non-dual games for you all. It is not for me, it is existencial stuff for me, it hurts. 

Suffer is desire of change. If everthing is ok as it is now, it means suffer is an illusion.

Believing thoughts about enlightenment is the surest way to perpetuate the separate self paradigm. Letting thoughts go in meditation is the surest way to realize the true nature. When the true nature, or ‘truth’ is realized, the false premise that ‘suffering is desire of change’ is seen through. Suffering is the denial of desire of change, and or the denial of no need for change. Suffering is illusory, but is not exceptional either. The more attached to thoughts and physicality awareness is, the less sense that makes. The less attached, the more sense. 

12 hours ago, RedLine said:

So you are denying essence of reality is Good/Love/Perfection?

That is not what I have experienced, not many others.

No one know’s another’s experience. Assumptions can be surrendered in meditation. No one can meditate for someone. No one can let go of thought attachment for someone. No one can let perspectives in discord with truth go for someone. To perpetuate such an expectation is to perpetuate suffering via the myth of the separate selves. Thinking so much that perfection is missed is similar to talking so much silence is missed. The perfection of water is wetness, though ice cubes struggle to recognize this, while it is their true nature. That the true nature is revealed is absolutely inevitable. When you fill the tray, ‘paradox’ isn’t even an arising thought / question. But first, empty it.