The ox

[Reciprocality]

I've had some experiences, they stick for 1/5 seconds. I've cried and been incedibly touched by some of them, i would conceptualize them as "disbelief" sometimes i say to myself "this is insane, this can not be real" "how, how" at the mere insanity of life being even a possebility.

One time it did come to me for a minute or two, not quite non-dual, but certaintly not strictly dual as my homeostasis.

I know many people meditate or take drugs for these experiences, mine came either random or from deep thoughts, do anyone have experiences with the emphasis of "disbelief", or any altered states without ever meditating or taking drugs at all? Would appriciate any answer.

[Moksha]

What does your intuition tell you? Is it possible to be awake, without needing to meditate or take drugs in order to stay awake?

[Reciprocality]

I do not quite get the meaning of your question with regard to the experience.

And to the degree i understand it it is rather absurd haha, you ask me if i can validate the "possebility" of my previous experiences being (neccesarily something else then the experience) in retrospect, by means of intuition?

I can tell you that IN THE MOMENT, it were a feeling of disbelief, a sensation that "holy shit how is the uniserve even real" i would name it a detachment of sort. 

[Gesundheit]

It's called derealization disorder.

Possible causes:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depersonalization-derealization-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20352911

And yes, I experience it a lot of times depending on certain things that I'm not fully aware of.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Reciprocality]

Thank you lots, and yes that it indeed could be. 

You know the reaction you have when someone say something incredibly random? Something not relatable at all? The sensation feels like that reaction, only it FEELS like everything is that "randomeness". And usually it dies of in the matter of seconds. It is very intense.

[Moksha]

@Reciprocality You can intuit truths that you haven't directly experienced yet. 

What I'm asking is, do you believe there are other people on the planet that are enlightened, in a permanent altered state of consciousness, without needing to constantly meditate or do drugs?

[Reciprocality]

Okay, so then i need to first say how i see enlightenment.

I think the metaphysical implications of turquoise enlightenment are plausible, but i do not believe those implications still, neither do i have disbelief of it.

What i do believe is that the epistemic parts about it is valid, so that a man indeed in his enlightenment are radicaly more conscious then other people, especially in those peak moments. Aswell do i believe that these non-dual trips filled with sensations of infinite love etc. will be of immense value to humanity in the hundreds of years to come.

Now to the question: i think these states of mind can be achieved without meditation and pshycodelics (to lesser extents), but radicaly rare. Still i would not believe that those experiences neccecitates the many conclusions i have seen for example Leo draw. But again, many of which i find plausible and not contradictory to my own believes. (but i can obviously not now believe everything which i do not find contradictory to my believes hitherto, or rather: non-contradiction do not neccesitate knowledge nor believes)

[Endangered-EGO]

@Gesundheit Derealisation and Depersonalisation is the dark night of the soul. Dont say something is not enlightenment because it is in the DSM-V.

There is no such thing as positive DP/DR, because that is an awakening.

Believe me, my first awakening was fucking horrible, I went through the eternal now with incredible fear and existential suffering.

Some people have panic attacks every time they get a taste of the source. That is the dark night/ DP/DR.

If there is no fear, there is no dark night of the soul. Awakening without love feels weird, that can be considered as DP/DR in psychology, but that is simply because the love part is still missing.

[Reciprocality]

11 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Gesundheit Derealisation and Depersonalisation is the dark night of the soul. Dont say something is not enlightenment because it is in the DSM-V.

There is no such thing as positive DP/DR, because that is an awakening.

Believe me, my first awakening was fucking horrible, I went through the eternal now with incredible fear and existential suffering.

Some people have panic attacks every time they get a taste of the source. That is the dark night/ DP/DR.

If there is no fear, there is no dark night of the soul. Awakening without love feels weird, that can be considered as DP/DR in psychology, but that is simply because the love part is still missing.

Good point, and i will agree, psychology can only by means of the scientific method do so much, to ultimatley call it by a name of "diagnosis" does me no harm, but i think as you may allude to that psychology should take some responsebility not dogmatizing everything which strike their first instinct "less then ideal". For many may find it tyranizing.

But again, the diagnosis as i read about it seem relatively simmilar to my experiences.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Reciprocality

[Moksha]

@Reciprocality I mostly agree. There are levels of intensity, even within people that are enlightened. The light is always on for them, but it shines more brightly sometimes. 

I'm not sure that meditation or drugs are necessary for enlightened people to experience Consciousness dialing the dimmer switch all the way to the right. They are always connected, and Consciousness decides the intensity of the connection, as required by the moment.

[Nahm]

@Reciprocality

Infinity is unbelievable. Life is impossible. One reason people meditate is that it brings the activity of the mind to a rest such that there is not an apparent contextualization of what seemed to be experienced. Without a foundation, experiencing such things does seem to lead to depersonalization or derealization, but these are the prior mentioned contextualization. mind is ‘made of’ Mind. When mind is at rest Mind is already present. mind has a ceiling of duality which Mind seems to have but actually doesn’t. Without samadhi, satori seems to come & go, simplified, without a foundation glimpses seem to come & go. 

 

[Gesundheit]

9 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Gesundheit Derealisation and Depersonalisation is the dark night of the soul. Dont say something is not enlightenment because it is in the DSM-V.

Not sure about this. I've personally gone through the dark night of the soul. It was nothing like anything else. Just pure suffering. DP/DR don't necessarily have the suffering component. In fact, they kinda helped me detach from the suffering. So maybe they're part of consciousness' immune system so to speak.

[Reciprocality]

10 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Reciprocality

Infinity is unbelievable. Life is impossible. One reason people meditate is that it brings the activity of the mind to a rest such that there is not an apparent contextualization of what seemed to be experienced. Without a foundation, experiencing such things does seem to lead to depersonalization or derealization, but these are the prior mentioned contextualization. mind is ‘made of’ Mind. When mind is at rest Mind is already present. mind has a ceiling of duality which Mind seems to have but actually doesn’t. Without samadhi, satori seems to come & go, simplified, without a foundation glimpses seem to come & go. 

 

Indeed, "life is impossible", "life is impossible", and again and again, as though one became lucid in a dream. "This dream is impossbile only what it seems to be".

I think your thought here are hitting the bullseye, so thank you. @Nahm

Edited November 9, 2020 by Reciprocality

[Endangered-EGO]

@Gesundheit Well, in clinical psychology, a mental issue is defined by the symptoms causing suffering or being in the way of having a normal life. Psychologists and Psychiatrist might want to treat you for DP/DR even if you are the most fulfilled person on earth, because they could find it strange or dangerous or deluded, but thats not always the case for people who have an awakening.

You can rebuild a self with your mind or rebuild your identification with your Body. So basically not emptying objects but filling them with ego.

If you feel bad about DP/DR, you can rebuild your identification with your Body, by not focussing of the raw input of bodily sensation but also imagining your legs while you focus on them. This is ego.

However if you are not in danger of harming yourself or other people, and it doesnt cause suffering I dont see why you would do that. Love awakening will do it.

[Nahm]

@Reciprocality ???