Spiral Dynamics: Putin?

[Tim R]

What stage do you think Vladimir Putin is at? Since there's so much to consider with him, I kinda have a hard time estimating his level of development... Your thoughts?

[Lyubov]

He is mostly solid blue. I think he has some red to him with all the wealth he has accumulated but he mostly rules from a blue perspective. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Lyubov

[TrustTheProcess]

I agree with @Lyubov

very blue with a nice dose of red and orange

[DocWatts]

From what I know of him, he strikes me as a textbook Red; the reason I give for this is because he's pretty clearly a Plutocrat, and closer to a Mob boss rather than say a stage Blue religious zealot or ideologue. I think he tries to play himself off as Blue Patriot in a similar way to how Trump tries to play himself off as an Orange businessman (and also Trump admires Putin and wants to be just like him is also decent evidence for this).

https://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/

Edited November 3, 2020 by DocWatts

[Thewritersunion]

Blue center of gravity. A little orange. Getting worse and pivoting to red over time. 

[Roy]

Pretty blatantly Red lol, he uses and appeals to Blue only to the extent it serves his personal agenda. He is a perfect embodiment of the corrupt opportunists that seized power in Russia and turned it into an oil mafia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

After one learns history though it's not that hard to understand and even sympathize somewhat with the aggressive skepticism and posturing of the Russian psyche. The peoples of Russia have gone through tremendous amounts of bloodshed relative to many others. From being literally targeted for extermination from the Nazis less than a lifetime ago, to incompetent and ruthless Tsars, then back to half a millennia ago having their necks under the boot of Mongol savages.

It's no mistake that Russia is exactly where it is development wise, and why they look to a strongman like Putin to provide a veil of safety and strength, at the expense of everything else.

Sadly I think the next wave of progress for them will only happen with some kind of revolution from the younger generation, which means more blood spilled. They simply don't care for the needless nationalist struggle of the cold war ideals and with access to the internet and the rest of the world see just how bad they are being shafted by their "leaders".

Edited November 3, 2020 by Roy

[TrustTheProcess]

Putin is way too calculated and strategic to be centered at red. 

[Tim R]

25 minutes ago, louhad said:

Putin is way too calculated and strategic to be centered at red. 

Exactly.

[Thewritersunion]

@louhad Alexander The Great

[DocWatts]

@louhad Julius Caesar

Hannibal

Ghengis Khan

 

All strategic thinkers at stage Red.

[TrustTheProcess]

@DocWatts @Thewritersunion

interesting. I am admittedly not too familiar with those leaders' specific strategies and approaches. I guess a large part of how I conceptualize red is the impulsive facet of it. I def see Putin resonating with red in many aspects, but to me, he just seems very patient and level-headed whereas the leaders you mentioned above(based on my limited understanding-- not a history buff), were primarily focused on "Fighting till the end of the world" and "Conquering for the sake of conquering" whereas Putin seems to have a very complex way of thinking and seems very genuinely patriotic (as opposed to Trump's charlatanism). 

 

How would y'all distinguish between red strategy and orange strategy and how specifically does putin have a red strategic paradigm as opposed to an orange one?

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, louhad said:

Putin is way too calculated and strategic to be centered at red. 

You forgot to quote Leo.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, louhad said:

How would y'all distinguish between red strategy and orange strategy and how specifically does putin have a red strategic paradigm as opposed to an orange one?

Red strategy: war. Orange strategy: winning.

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, louhad said:

@DocWatts @Thewritersunion

interesting. I am admittedly not too familiar with those leaders' specific strategies and approaches. I guess a large part of how I conceptualize red is the impulsive facet of it. I def see Putin resonating with red in many aspects, but to me, he just seems very patient and level-headed whereas the leaders you mentioned above(based on my limited understanding-- not a history buff), were primarily focused on "Fighting till the end of the world" and "Conquering for the sake of conquering" whereas Putin seems to have a very complex way of thinking and seems very genuinely patriotic (as opposed to Trump's charlatanism). 

How would y'all distinguish between red strategy and orange strategy and how specifically does putin have a red strategic paradigm as opposed to an orange one?

The three figures I mention are arguably three of the greatest military geniuses in world history. 

Red is about Survival; which often translates to military conquests. Red is brutal, but as a rule it also has the capacity to be strategic and intelligent as well (though as a rule you'll find less of these individuals here than at other stages).

While Red can be impulsive, when impulsivity is contrary to its survival strategy exceptional Red individuals can reign in that impulsivity.

One of the main differences with Orange is that it is more likely to scheme than it is to use violence to achieve its ends. Because Orange went through Blue, it will also have at least some degree of morality that restrains the brutality of Red.

[Roy]

5 hours ago, louhad said:

Putin is way too calculated and strategic to be centered at red. 

Putin is precisely calculated and strategic, for himself. It's quite Red. He literally changed the legislation to effectively make himself dictator for life, he poisons his fucking political opponents for christ sake lol! If he really was Blue and genuinely concerned about Russian nationality and prestige, you'd think being in power as long as he has with his cunning and strategic prowess the country would benefit....

But it's precisely the opposite, Russia is a rapidly decaying country. Their economy has been stagnant for years and they have a declining population despite being in the Northern hemisphere where people are starting to flock to. They are a shell of a nation that only projects soft power because of dumping all their resources into the military.

It's like 70% Red, 30% Blue for him. Spiral Dynamics is about anticipating and mapping values and behaviors, it's pretty clear where he lies I think.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Roy

[TrustTheProcess]

43 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

While Red can be impulsive, when impulsivity is contrary to its survival strategy exceptional Red individuals can reign in that impulsivity.

But if you can control your impulsive behavior, wouldn't that make you... not impulsive by definition? Perhaps these 3 leaders were such anomalies that it ain't fair to just use them as examples of the typical stage red leader? idk...

44 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

One of the main differences with Orange is that it is more likely to scheme than it is to use violence to achieve its ends. Because Orange went through Blue, it will also have at least some degree of morality that restrains the brutality of Red.

Interesting perspective. So you don't think Putin has those blue restraints? 

34 minutes ago, Roy said:

Putin is precisely calculated and strategic, for himself. It's quite Red. He literally changed the legislation to effectively make himself dictator for life, he poisons his fucking political opponents for christ sake lol! If he really was Blue and genuinely concerned about Russian nationality and prestige, you'd think being in power as long as he has with his cunning and strategic prowess the country would benefit....

But it's precisely the opposite, Russia is a rapidly decaying country. Their economy has been stagnant for years and they have a declining population despite being in the Northern hemisphere where people are starting to flock to. They are a shell of a nation that only projects soft power because of dumping all their resources into the military.

I hear you, he def has a lot of red, prob a bit more red than orange... Thing is though, I still feel predominantly blue vibes.  You can still be blue and not give a shit about the economy, income inequality, and standard of living of the average joe. Blue prioritizes honor, tradition, order, and military dominance. Just my take. All y'all are smart af though. I appreciate your perspectives. 

[ted73104]

It's hard to determine what level in spiral dynamics that Putin is in, because he is governing a country that is transitioning from red/blue to orange/green levels. I would guess Putin is a blue/grey guy, will a lot of grey since he has to do a lot of governing and dictating.

[Nthnl]

12 hours ago, Lyubov said:

He is mostly solid blue. I think he has some red to him with all the wealth he has accumulated but he mostly rules from a blue perspective. 

I dont know, you also have to account for his intelligence and strategical mindset. Although his values seem very low level, his methodology (to me at least) seems kinda higher on the scale. Very smart guy.

[Gesundheit]

Government is a stage Yellow structure, and for someone to know how to run it successfully, they have to be Yellow.

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Government is a stage Yellow structure, and for someone to know how to run it successfully, they have to be Yellow.

Lol no?