Meditation vs kriya yoga

[Pernani]

Idk which practice to stick with. I am tempted to try to master them both but I don't have enough time for that. 

Basically for 2 years I've been trying different kinds of meditation techniques. They all worked but they all had different effects. So I never actually stuck to one technique that I tried to master, because every technique has a different edge, and if I stick to one then I'd kinda be missing out the benefits of another. 

And then I started practicing hatha yoga along with kriya yoga. And that felt amazing. But its effects were also very different from those that come with meditation. 

So basically from my experience, the benefits that came with meditation is that I actually felt like I was growing. In one year of practice, my mindset changed a lot. I was getting bombarded with insights during the sessions and outside of them. Felt more relaxed, detached from my ego and my emotions. But it sometimes made me lethargic, depressed and unmotivated. 

Kriya, in a nutshell, felt awesome! My body felt good and my mind got sharper. Everytime I did breathing techniques, it was like charging myself with life. I felt good, energetic, healthy and strong. I was purging my emotional system from old baggage, and it was easier to connect to life on an emotional level. But ironically, because of that, it felt like some of its effects are opposite to what meditation does to u. It seemed like my ego and its emotional reactions got stronger, in the sense that there was less distance between them and my awareness. Backlashes were stronger, and transcendental insights weren't as common as before, so I wasn't getting the sense of "growing" or that my mindset was changing like I did before. 

Now I'm back to actually trying to master meditation by following a book called "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha", but it's not going very well since I've been struggling to pass the threshold of getting good with concentration practice for a few months now. 

I get that this post is kinda all over the place, but I wanna know if you felt these differences in your own experience, how you reconciliated them, and generally anything that would help me choose a practice to stick with and try to master. Thank you ?

[The0Self]

@Pernani Ever read The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa? Or Seeing That Frees by Rob Burbea? If not, “you” are welcome. It (you) won’t be there for long. (Kidding; it ain’t there now).
 

In all seriousness... It’s too complex, and simple, to even navigate. Daniel Ingram is awesome but “unfortunately“ and (to some) heretically, not “fully enlightened.”

FURTHER

[The0Self]

But in all helpfulness, what are your desires? Doesn’t even matter what I say beyond this. What do you want?

[The0Self]

Just now, TylerJ said:

What would meditation being mastered look like?

Happiness and profundity beyond comprehension. That’s not enlightenment though. Enlightenment has literally nothing to do with that.

[Consilience]

54 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Happiness and profundity beyond comprehension. That’s not enlightenment though. Enlightenment has literally nothing to do with that.

But in a sense yes enlightenment does. Because the truth of the matter is the mechanism that is creating suffering and depriving happiness is a mechanism built entirely out of delusion. When the truth is fully seen, suffering becomes an impossibility and the source of authentic happiness is found. How can one know authentic happiness without knowing what's really true? 

[Consilience]

I've never had great results with Kriya. The Mind Illuminated took my meditation to another level. I basically feel like I'm high dose microdosing every time "I" meditate now. Id also recommend contemplating with Self Inquiry. Self Inquiry + serious meditation + psychedelics = bruh 

[The0Self]

19 minutes ago, Consilience said:

But in a sense yes enlightenment does. Because the truth of the matter is the mechanism that is creating suffering and depriving happiness is a mechanism built entirely out of delusion. When the truth is fully seen, suffering becomes an impossibility and the source of authentic happiness is found. How can one know authentic happiness without knowing what's really true? 

If you are in fact free from suffering, ignore this:

Enlightenment = shame so intense that it dissolves into cosmic suicide. Insanely terrible. But how can “you” know what’s true if there is no you? “Tricky” as Leo says, doesn’t cut it. Experience is delusion? Is delusion bad? Of course not. Because neither is death. There is only “is.” What is liberation? And for whom? There is only happiness. Maybe I’m coming from a different perspective. For me, sadness is the most transcendent form of happiness. Literally, I’m weird. Unless somehow the actual emotion of sadness has been completely hidden from me. I love nothing more than sadness, and also gratitude. What could be more beautiful than sadness?

[Pernani]

12 hours ago, The0Self said:

@Pernani Ever read The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa? Or Seeing That Frees by Rob Burbea? If not, “you” are welcome. It (you) won’t be there for long. (Kidding; it ain’t there now).
 

In all seriousness... It’s too complex, and simple, to even navigate. Daniel Ingram is awesome but “unfortunately“ and (to some) heretically, not “fully enlightened.”

FURTHER

The mind illuminated has been mentioned twice in this thread so far. Definitely gonna check it out. I'm pretty much struggling with getting further in MCTB.

 

12 hours ago, The0Self said:

But in all helpfulness, what are your desires? Doesn’t even matter what I say beyond this. What do you want?

I just want to be genuinely happy, excited about life while living it in a fulfilling way. Also at this stage I'm still struggling with getting my survival handled and all the fears that come from that. 

 

11 hours ago, Consilience said:

I've never had great results with Kriya. The Mind Illuminated took my meditation to another level. I basically feel like I'm high dose microdosing every time "I" meditate now. Id also recommend contemplating with Self Inquiry. Self Inquiry + serious meditation + psychedelics = bruh 

I never actually practiced self inquiry seriously, bec enlightenment wasn't a goal I was focusing on. It just spontaneously arose during my meditations sometimes. What was your experience with kriya like? And what are these results that u felt lacking?

 

I'd also love to hear about everyone's experience with Kriya and Meditation, from those that tried to get a taste of both only to decide on seriously pursuing the former or the latter.

[Consilience]

3 hours ago, Pernani said:

I never actually practiced self inquiry seriously, bec enlightenment wasn't a goal I was focusing on. It just spontaneously arose during my meditations sometimes. What was your experience with kriya like? And what are these results that u felt lacking?

Yeah if your goal isn't enlightenment, then self inquiry is pretty useless. 

With Kriya, I felt like all of the various focusing techniques were just too complicated and unnecessary. What are we training with meditation? Fundamentally, we're training mindfulness which could also be called awareness. What is mindfulness? I like Shinzen Young's definition - Concentration power, Sensory Clarity, and Equanimity. These three skills are the skills that yield the results of meditation. These three skills are what purify the mind, heal the emotional body, build physical pliancy, and essentially raise one's level of consciousness in the long run. I'd also throw in attentional stability as an important subcomponent of the concentration power piece which is where The Mind Illuminated comes in which Shinzen doesn't really address in his system. 

Kriya felt like it was overcomplicating the whole process while also missing what the primary aim of meditation practice is all about. Mainly, training those three skills to apply in every day life. Even if I were to use Kriya meditation techniques, at the end of the day I'd still be training concentration, sensory clarity, and equanimity. Furthermore, I want a meditation technique I can use all day every day. Kriya is really not conducive for life practice, but something like anapanasati (mindful breathing) from TMI or even Shinzen Young's See Hear Feel technique I can easily do all day long.  

But Kriya definitely has its fans. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the aim of Kriya or what types of benefits are available. I'd be curious to hear other's take. I believe some of the breathing techniques could be helpful for purifying emotions, but as far as building mindfulness.. Eh? 

[PenguinPablo]

@Pernani That "Seeing that Frees" that was mentioned also VERY important book to better understand the deepest teachings of Buddhism!

[Oppositionless]

17 hours ago, Pernani said:

Now I'm back to actually trying to master meditation by following a book called "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha", but it's not going very well since I've been struggling to pass the threshold of getting good with concentration practice for a few months now. 

Potentially useful maps in that one, but to develop a meditation habit— an app, perhaps

[The0Self]

7 hours ago, Pernani said:

The mind illuminated has been mentioned twice in this thread so far. Definitely gonna check it out. I'm pretty much struggling with getting further in MCTB.

I recommend both reading the book (TMI) and listening to the audiobook (which is actually available on YouTube, parts 1 and 2). After that, consider checking out Seeing That Frees. It's even more advanced. Might take over a year to process it.

7 hours ago, Pernani said:

I just want to be genuinely happy, excited about life while living it in a fulfilling way. Also at this stage I'm still struggling with getting my survival handled and all the fears that come from that.

I'd recommend forgetting about enlightenment, and just practicing The Mind Illuminated. Also, in your life, practice radical practicality - figure out what you want, and do it. Desire (clarity of desire) is paramount.

Edited November 3, 2020 by The0Self

[Gesundheit]

It's all about the angle from which you pee while standing. If you can direct your penis up to 91.3° you will achieve happiness. 90° will make you miserable, trust me. A little bit to the left is optional but I prefer the middle way.

Buddy, happiness is not a science. It is the letting go of science. You can manipulate a lot of things in this life, but you can't force happiness. There are no methods for being happy. A method is a condition, you need fear to keep it alive, and once broken it will make you miserable. Methods/techniques feed on fear. Conditions are just limits you impose upon yourself out of fear. And it's all coming from the belief that you are not enough.

Insights, health, energy, focus, etc... are all nice things to have, but the question is; will any or all of them actually make you happy? Think about it.

[The0Self]

@Gesundheit I’m sure I’ve seen you mention Jed quite a few times. I think what OP meant by happiness was not what someone who holds Jed McKenna’s “enlightenment“ in higher regard than “human adulthood” would consider as happiness. For OP, happiness likely means personal fulfillment, profundity, meaning, and other stuff that has a point. Figuring out what he (she? idk) wants is what will help them. And gratitude and practicality, and not taking life for granted. Maybe you were coming from the same place and I misunderstood, or maybe you’re right. I don’t know.

[Consilience]

4 hours ago, The0Self said:

After that, consider checking out Seeing That Frees. It's even more advanced. Might take over a year to process it.

Just found an intro to this book. Dude literally exactly the kind of book I've been looking for on my journey. Thank you for the recommendation even though it wasn't for me haha. 

[The0Self]

1 minute ago, Consilience said:

Just found an intro to this book. Dude literally exactly the kind of book I've been looking for on my journey. Thank you for the recommendation even though it wasn't for me haha. 

Oh, you’re so welcome. Buckle up. ? Lol, Rob was something else. He died less than a year ago of cancer. Pancreatic, I think.

[Gesundheit]

@The0Self Well I'm deluded and a devil, so doesn't matter what I say.

[Tarzan]

@Pernani

I would lump Kriya yoga as a practice focusing on energy, one-pointedness concentration, and rapture (peak states). You can get into some wild territory if you have a true intention and do it with passion so-to-speak (detached passion ofc). Those states of high energy seep into daily life and it seemed to be working for you, but if you want the transformation that I think you are looking for then you could complement kriya with an investigative, self-inquiry, or the sort technique. Vipassana/mindfulness/self-inquiry. The simplest way is to just rest in that high energy state for as long as you can after the practice (for me it's like doing self-inquiry 24/7, or awareness-on-awareness).

Essentially, both TMI, and Hardcore Buddha Book propose exactly this sequence of focus - at first get your concentration right (one-pointedness, which Kriya can do super effectively) - and then investigate. Then again I don't know, for me I did 5meo and my practice got supercharged after I got in touch with my 'Inner guru' (intuition) so-to-speak. Peak states have seeped into daily life and a sudden ability to effortlessly rest on awareness itself. Awareness-on-awareness. Lots of purging and up-downing - getting used to flipping from a passionate feel-good-about-life state to darknighting to equanimous super-accepting-of-reality-and-myself do-nothing states (less common peak states). The highest peak was ego-death at the cinema, lol it was beatuiful and comical to see myself in the cinema (self-inquiry and mindfulness turn into one).

I truly don't know what will work for you, but if I'd give any advice it is to brute-force it - everything at once - psychedelics, classic meditation, kriya, 24/7 baseline focus. If kriya then I def recommend SantataGamanas books (Kriya Exposed and Secret Power of Kriya) and for psychedelics ramp your tolerance for self-acceptance and openmindedness up smartly (start with mushrooms or acid, and weh nyou feel ready, or have reached a plateau, then 5meo).

And remember that you are an individual and general guidelines might not work for you exactly - experiment with what works for you. You seem to be resonating a lot with classic meditation, which is cool. I don't thing with kriya and meditation its and this-or-that thing but more about how to do both, more of a complementary relationship, lots of potential for integrating them together. So manny books recommended to you lol. I hope you find the time to go through them

[Juliano Zn]

On 11/3/2020 at 0:30 AM, The0Self said:

Ever read The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa? Or Seeing That Frees by Rob Burbea? If not, “you” are welcome. It (you) won’t be there for long. (Kidding; it ain’t there now).
 

In all seriousness... It’s too complex, and simple, to even navigate. Daniel Ingram is awesome but “unfortunately“ and (to some) heretically, not “fully enlightened.”

FURTHER

@The0Self Is it possible to progress in meditation or kriya if you live in a noisy environment? Getting into Jhanas or just be in the after effect poise of Kriya? Here where I live, every 5 minutes a dog start to bark or some other noise distracts me. I find that the only thing that helps is to kind of expand yourself and allow the noises to be part of you, but it is distraction anyways.

 

 

[Pernani]

19 hours ago, Consilience said:

Yeah if your goal isn't enlightenment, then self inquiry is pretty useless. 

With Kriya, I felt like all of the various focusing techniques were just too complicated and unnecessary. What are we training with meditation? Fundamentally, we're training mindfulness which could also be called awareness. What is mindfulness? I like Shinzen Young's definition - Concentration power, Sensory Clarity, and Equanimity. These three skills are the skills that yield the results of meditation. These three skills are what purify the mind, heal the emotional body, build physical pliancy, and essentially raise one's level of consciousness in the long run. I'd also throw in attentional stability as an important subcomponent of the concentration power piece which is where The Mind Illuminated comes in which Shinzen doesn't really address in his system. 

Kriya felt like it was overcomplicating the whole process while also missing what the primary aim of meditation practice is all about. Mainly, training those three skills to apply in every day life. Even if I were to use Kriya meditation techniques, at the end of the day I'd still be training concentration, sensory clarity, and equanimity. Furthermore, I want a meditation technique I can use all day every day. Kriya is really not conducive for life practice, but something like anapanasati (mindful breathing) from TMI or even Shinzen Young's See Hear Feel technique I can easily do all day long.  

But Kriya definitely has its fans. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the aim of Kriya or what types of benefits are available. I'd be curious to hear other's take. I believe some of the breathing techniques could be helpful for purifying emotions, but as far as building mindfulness.. Eh? 

Thank you so much for your input. I feel like some teachers can definitely over-complicate Kriya, while some others recommend a more simpler basic set of practices (like Santata Gamana with his first book). Didn't you experience any benefits to doing yoga that you didn't find in your meditation practice?

@The0Self @PenguinPablo Thank you for the recommendation. I'm definitely checking out TMI first, then I'll see about the second book.

11 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

It's all about the angle from which you pee while standing. If you can direct your penis up to 91.3° you will achieve happiness. 90° will make you miserable, trust me. A little bit to the left is optional but I prefer the middle way.

Buddy, happiness is not a science. It is the letting go of science. You can manipulate a lot of things in this life, but you can't force happiness. There are no methods for being happy. A method is a condition, you need fear to keep it alive, and once broken it will make you miserable. Methods/techniques feed on fear. Conditions are just limits you impose upon yourself out of fear. And it's all coming from the belief that you are not enough.

Insights, health, energy, focus, etc... are all nice things to have, but the question is; will any or all of them actually make you happy? Think about it.

Don't you think that one can only reach to that conclusion in their direct experience after lots n lots of practice? Otherwise I'd just end up wasting my time like I've already been for the majority of my life.

9 hours ago, Tarzan said:

@Pernani

I would lump Kriya yoga as a practice focusing on energy, one-pointedness concentration, and rapture (peak states). You can get into some wild territory if you have a true intention and do it with passion so-to-speak (detached passion ofc). Those states of high energy seep into daily life and it seemed to be working for you, but if you want the transformation that I think you are looking for then you could complement kriya with an investigative, self-inquiry, or the sort technique. Vipassana/mindfulness/self-inquiry. The simplest way is to just rest in that high energy state for as long as you can after the practice (for me it's like doing self-inquiry 24/7, or awareness-on-awareness).

Essentially, both TMI, and Hardcore Buddha Book propose exactly this sequence of focus - at first get your concentration right (one-pointedness, which Kriya can do super effectively) - and then investigate. Then again I don't know, for me I did 5meo and my practice got supercharged after I got in touch with my 'Inner guru' (intuition) so-to-speak. Peak states have seeped into daily life and a sudden ability to effortlessly rest on awareness itself. Awareness-on-awareness. Lots of purging and up-downing - getting used to flipping from a passionate feel-good-about-life state to darknighting to equanimous super-accepting-of-reality-and-myself do-nothing states (less common peak states). The highest peak was ego-death at the cinema, lol it was beatuiful and comical to see myself in the cinema (self-inquiry and mindfulness turn into one).

I truly don't know what will work for you, but if I'd give any advice it is to brute-force it - everything at once - psychedelics, classic meditation, kriya, 24/7 baseline focus. If kriya then I def recommend SantataGamanas books (Kriya Exposed and Secret Power of Kriya) and for psychedelics ramp your tolerance for self-acceptance and openmindedness up smartly (start with mushrooms or acid, and weh nyou feel ready, or have reached a plateau, then 5meo).

And remember that you are an individual and general guidelines might not work for you exactly - experiment with what works for you. You seem to be resonating a lot with classic meditation, which is cool. I don't thing with kriya and meditation its and this-or-that thing but more about how to do both, more of a complementary relationship, lots of potential for integrating them together. So manny books recommended to you lol. I hope you find the time to go through them

Thank you for sharing your experiences, you seem to be floating on cloud 9 with your kriya practice. Have you tried classic meditation before committing to kriya yoga? If so then what made you decide on which practice to pursue?