Are Stage Blue Enlightened people (monks and the like) deeply enlightened?

[Vision]

So there are different depths of Enlightenment - Does this mean that Stage Blue monks are Zen Devils?

 

They are still dogmatic, some are sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. 

 

Could they have the deepest levels of awakening/enlightenment despite being Stage Blue? 

[Gesundheit]

@Vision It depends on how we define enlightenment and how we define its relationship with survival and society.

A Zen-devil is technically someone who does not understand Zen properly but nevertheless does things on the basis that he understands Zen fully. He does "evil" things in the name of Zen, and so the term is coined because of that. If he does "good" good things in the name of Zen, nobody will see his misunderstandings or call him a devil, but they will praise him and Zen altogether.

Dogmatism, sexism, racism, homophobia, stage Blue, Spiral Dynamics, etc... are all survival-related things. Depending on the environment and the person, these things can change. They have nothing to do with enlightenment per se, even though they somehow get affected by it, both directly and indirectly, whether positively or negatively. Although, it also all depends on how we define enlightenment. Some definitions leave no room for such things to exist, but they also leave no room for enlightened people to exist. Some more human-friendly definitions suggest that we can integrate enlightenment into our lives.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Vision said:

Could they have the deepest levels of awakening/enlightenment despite being Stage Blue?

Yes

You are conflating two different things.

[Thought Art]

@Vision You can 'Wake Up' but you still gotta 'Grow up'

and the waking up, changes and is nuanced depending on your level of 'growing up' and 'cleaning up' and becoming more integral.

[fridjonk]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes

You are conflating two different things.

The deepest awakening is love. 

How could they ever be racist or homophobic if they realize oneness?  They should know they're mocking themselves. 

Isn't the deepest awakening the highest state + the highest worldview? More pure mind=more pure awakening. 

[electroBeam]

@fridjonk consider the possibility that homophobia and racism IS love, and your insistence that its not IS dualistic and NOT what enlightenment is about. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

How could they ever be racist or homophobic if they realize oneness?

Easy. Cultural norms.

No matter how enlightened you get your mind will still be filled with cultural norms.

[fridjonk]

14 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

consider the possibility that homophobia and racism IS love,

I realize that. 

I was just noting how it's not really the deepest awakening if your mind is still filled with cultural norms. 

But I guess it doesn't really matter. 

I've just yet to find a stage blue enlightened person that speaks about love as the highest awakening. 

[electroBeam]

9 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

I was just noting how it's not really the deepest awakening if your mind is still filled with cultural norms. 

Well you're from iceland where the average person is green, so you couldn't imagine it even without spirituality.

Try getting your awakenings to somehow show you why hippies(green) are problems and will cause issues in the future(in 100 years or something). No amount of awakening will show you how yellow is important. Only study will. 

Green is much trickier then blue because green is extremely loving. Although blue is also very loving, just for their own race, yet its hard to imagine for us because we are millennials/gen zs

Edited November 2, 2020 by electroBeam

[fridjonk]

2 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Well you're from iceland where the average person is green, so you couldn't imagine it even without spirituality.

The majority here are still at orange with hue of green. We just have a very green government. 

4 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Try getting your awakenings to somehow show you why hippies(green) are problems and will cause issues in the future(in 100 years or something).

Well aware of that. 

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

No amount of awakening will show you how yellow is important. Only study will. 

Or just both.  No shoulds or shouldnt's, no will's or wont's.

[electroBeam]

8 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

No shoulds or shouldnt's, no will's or wont's.

No shoulds or shouldn'ts, no will's or wonts includes shoulds and shouldn'ts, wills and wonts 

 

[Gesundheit]

@electroBeam

Dude you're highly delusional. Try staying away from drugs for a few months.

1 hour ago, fridjonk said:

The deepest awakening is love. 

How could they ever be racist or homophobic if they realize oneness?  They should know they're mocking themselves. 

Isn't the deepest awakening the highest state + the highest worldview? More pure mind=more pure awakening. 

This should make you wonder if love is truly the deepest awakening, or if there's something else deeper than love.

You can already see that love doesn't hold water. Are you brave enough to let it go and move past it?

[fridjonk]

33 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

This should make you wonder if love is truly the deepest awakening, or if there's something else deeper than love.

 

It was always love and always will be, it does not go beyond it. You'll see it in the end; God is love and you don't go past god. 

33 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

You can already see that love doesn't hold water.

Love is what made water a possibility in the first place. The selfless act of god, accepting everything as equal out of its love, made water a possibility. So it actually doesn't hold water, it is water.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by fridjonk

[Gesundheit]

38 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

It was always love and always will be, it does not go beyond it. You'll see it in the end; God is love and you don't go past god. 

Love is what made water a possibility in the first place. The selfless act of god, accepting everything as equal out of its love, made water a possibility. So it actually doesn't hold water, it is water.  

I swear to God when I read something like this I feel like God is making fun of me. I feel like there's someone sitting back somewhere waiting for me to curse him.

Side note: Materialists treat science the same way you treat love. What makes you think you're different?

[Moksha]

Enlightenment is detachment from our aversions and desires. That includes detachment from our political values and beliefs. You can still allow them, but you no longer identify with them, or take them so seriously. You become even-minded toward everyone, because you realize everyone is the same.

[fridjonk]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Side note: Materialists treat science the same way you treat love. What makes you think you're different?

Direct experience vs ideological ideas. 

[Gesundheit]

@fridjonk good, but how do you know that direct experience and absolute truth are the same thing?

[fridjonk]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@fridjonk good, but how do you know that direct experience and absolute truth are the same thing?

When you're in an absolute state, there is nothing but truth, you realize you are truth. 

There's no point in talking about it really, one has to experience it to realize it. 

It's like, you are, right? You are. I am. That is true. 

So when you're in an absolute state, you just see truth for what it is. It just is, like this exact moment. 

Can't really be put into words.  

[Moksha]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@fridjonk good, but how do you know that direct experience and absolute truth are the same thing?

You don't. Uncertainty is inevitable, and embracing uncertainty is the path to enlightenment. The enlightened recognize the nameless Mystery that is ultimate reality, but they cannot describe or comprehend it.

Direct experience is the closest you can come to understanding reality, because it is self-verifiable. But even through direct experience, all you can do is point to Tat and shrug.

[Raze]

11 hours ago, Vision said:

So there are different depths of Enlightenment - Does this mean that Stage Blue monks are Zen Devils?

 

They are still dogmatic, some are sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. 

 

Could they have the deepest levels of awakening/enlightenment despite being Stage Blue? 

No, but they are more enlightened then someone higher up the spiral. Enlightenment is basically just returning to where you began. So in my opinion the spiral starts at enlightenment and as you go up you are getting further away from enlightenment, but ultimately circling around back to enlightenment. 

I suspect that is why people become enlightened period. I don't think any human has actually gone all the way up the spiral and come back to enlightenment yet. The people who become enlightened are because they fall so low on the spiral by some freak accident they flip to the other side. For example Eckhart Tolle talked about how he was basically on the verge of suicide from the meaningless and apathy he felt when his experience happened. True apathy is the lowest a human can go, if you go lower then it you may find out you don't exist at all. That could also be why meditation and silencing the mind leads to enlightenment, because you are almost tricking yourself into not existing by not thinking.

Stage blue or stage red people can seem primitive but a lot of the time they are actually more connected to the stillness and acceptance than say a stage orange or green person from what I've seen.