Meditation Vs. Psychedelics: The Power Of Your Mind

[Nahm]

“When the ego has been transcended, will there be only the spontaneous flow of the universe?”

- the universe

[r0ckyreed]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

@r0ckyreed There is a lot to explore without substances. One of my favorite meditative mindspaces comes after running two hours in a forest. And no substance can being there. Naturally high conscious states are amazing too. 

Nice! Yeah I love running. 

 

33 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always aware, even when you don't meditate.

Not really. You aren’t aware of how you shine the sun or how you work your immune system or breathe. Observing gets you closest to the meditative state.

 

34 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Yeah but sooner or later, one way or another, you will exit the meditation, which means that meditation can be disturbed.

Lol. When you exit meditation, it won’t be disturbed because you are no longer meditating. How can you be disturbed while meditating if you aren’t meditating? Meditation is all about noticing your mind and it’s tendencies to distract you. When someone talks to you, you use talking as an object of meditation. Meditation is just being in the Now. If you are lost in thought, you aren’t meditating. Meditation is noticing distraction and disruptions, but being unaffected by them. You are like a tree that withstands the storm.

 

38 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Consciousness is the space in which experiences, states, "not being present", psychedelic trips, meditation, insights, practices, beliefs, delusion, etc. comes and goes.

Edited 23 minutes ago by Mikael89

Correct. Meditation is all about being and observing the Now. That’s it. It is when you become ONE with all that is happening. You become ONE with Consciousness itself. When your monkey mind takes over, you are lost in your mind and out of touch with what is happening. 
 

You are the watcher. Notice that when you become the watcher and are able to watch all that arises and goes, your mind is completely still, calm, and undisturbed. Even if someone is yelling at you, you watch it nonjudgmentally and be like a tree. That’s it. Meditation is actuality and everything else that you think about meditation is concept and imagination. All definitions that you place upon reality are what limit it. Look at your hand and observe it and BE with it without thoughts, labels or distinctions. You realize that there is no hand and all there is, is Pure Being. That’s it.

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always ONE with Consciousness

Yes of course, but the mind lives as if it’s separate and disconnected.

 

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always the watcher

Yeah but you aren’t always aware watching things. Notice that right now that breathing is happening and that you weren’t aware of it until I said so now. Notice the sensations on your feet. It is likely that you aren’t aware of any of these things for most of the day. How can you be a watcher always if you are not always watching? Sounds more like you are the reactor most of the day.

 

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always being.

Not always being in the here and now. How often are you carried away by your thoughts? Meditation is about noticing that. How often are you actually watching yourself being carried away by past and future? You most likely do this habitually.

 

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always observing the Now.

No. You live now, but you are not always observing now. You tune the Now out most of the time. Are you telling me that you are aware of every car passing by, every bird chirp, every tree, every breath, every sensation, and you are also aware of watching it and being the watcher? It’s likely that you do many things habitually and automatically. Look up the term habituate. Notice that that is the curse of being an adult.

 

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

If meditation couldn't be disturbed you would always be meditating,

No. There is no such thing as a distraction if you are actually meditating because you notice the thought and let it pass. It is YOU who is being disturbed, not meditation itself. The Now just is and is never disturbed. When you lose connection to the Now, that is being disturbed. Stop thinking of meditation as a technique and see it as a way to connect with God. I’m not sure if this makes sense, but the only way to realize this is to actually sit down and BE with Now. Whenever a thought arises, you watch it. If the thought distracts you, you are no longer being with what is. That’s pretty much it. You are either fully immersed and acceptant of what is, or you aren’t. I am meditating right now as I type this message very slowly. I am fully present into every key that I am typing and every movement of my fingers, my breath, sensations and I am watching my mind, emotions, etc. You can either live consciously or unconsciously. 

[r0ckyreed]

Do you guys recommend Cannabis as a good psychedelic substance to try out? Just how effective is cannabis for Consciousness work?

[Loving Radiance]

6 hours ago, Forestluv said:

People at my sangha had no idea I started using psychedelics - within months, high level practitioners and monks were asking me :”Wow, what happened to you?” Your practice has taken off”.

You mean the practices were enhanced like meditation on steroids but the steroids left 'marks' on your state of being?

 

5 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

I guess psychedelics may help expand the mind, but I would really like to raise my state from myself rather than from a plant.

So you would also reject to drink a freshly brewed tea for your stomach ache?

5 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

once I feel like I am ready

Yeah, listen to your heart. If it feels good, then it's right.

2 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Cannabis as a good psychedelic substance to try out

You can try it out. You can surely become aware of God. I for myself wouldn't use it long-term.

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Loving Radiance said:

So you would also reject to drink a freshly brewed tea for your stomach ache?

I would much rather find a way to either bear my suffering or to alleviate it through the power of the mind rather than relying on a substance. If I had a choice to learn how to heal myself or to take an external substance to heal a stomache ache, I would choose the former because I am always here but to rely on an external source for happiness is a remedy for disaster. Peace comes from within.

 

3 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

You are always connected with God.

You can't be disturbed since you are Consciousness.

True. Disturb is relative.

 

3 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

And that lasts for 5 minutes. Or maybe a few days. And then whoops you are not meditating anymore.

Where do you draw the line between formal meditation practice and the rest of your life? The point of meditation is to integrate that awareness with the rest of your life at least for me.

3 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

You can't not be with what is.

I think we can be out of touch with reality. 99% of people are not with what is.
 

Think of meditation like a pond and thoughts are like ripples. When you meditate, you are calming your pond (mind) so that you can see your reflection in the waters. Why can’t this be integrated with the rest of your life? What is stoping you from continuing your meditation practice into your daily life? 
 

A still mind is a chill mind. Even if a rock is thrown into the pond, meditation notices this occurrence and remains still rather then getting lost in it and making more noise. Once your lost in your thoughts, you are distracted and not meditating. Being disturbed is related to ego-mind, not Absolute. 
 

Most people’s ponds are murky and noisy. Sure, they are God (the reflection or pond), but they are disengaged from their true nature. Even though their True Nature is who they are, people live their lives not engaged with their Nature.

Meditation = observation = consciousness

[r0ckyreed]

3 hours ago, Loving Radiance said:

I for myself wouldn't use it long-term.

Why not?

[Ry4n]

Psychedelics will actually facilitate your ability to meditate, especially if meditation is done during the trips. I don't think I'd ever be able to go as deep as I can without having been shown this through LSD. 

There will definitely be a stage however where psychedelics aren't of much use.  

Psychedelics can awaken you, but that doesn't mean they will make you enlightened. 

[Jodistrict]

Meditation is difficult and not everyone can do it.  In the East, only monks tend to meditate, and everyone else just does merit, in the hopes of becoming a monk in the next life.  Also, before they would even be allowed to meditate they would need to practice morality for several years to calm the mind.    It was westerners who believed and insisted they can instantly meditate.  Osho noticed westerners had a hard time relaxing the mind due to growing up in a Christian culture, so he developed dynamic meditation.  If your mind keeps spinning you can’t get anywhere.   I have been meditating for over 20 years, but I never experienced the state of Samadhi I had with 5-meo-DMT.  The voice had totally stopped and there was complete silence.  One reason to take psychedelics is for purification – to go into the shadow world and purge trauma from the body.  It’s the trauma that keeps the mind spinning.  Ayahausca is useful for purging.     

[SamueLSD]

9 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

I would really like to raise my state from myself rather than from a plant.

You eat plants and other chemicals that affect your mind every day, and you have done so your whole life. You're high on chemicals right now. Such is homeostasis.

What makes those chemicals any better than a psychedelic? 

 Don't see psychedelics as a 'cheat code' to awakening. You still have to do all the inner work that you are already doing to make them useful. 

It's like taking steroids to get really strong, you still have to go the gym .  Only difference: they aren't unhealthy, and you're doing it for higher consciousness.

[Ry4n]

One trap of psychedelics is to associate awakening with actual enlightenment, one being a state of consciousness, the other an insight that can be understood in almost any state of consciousness. 

[allislove]

external vs internal duality collapses to Internal.

Everything is Internal, follow the best feeling thought ??

[r0ckyreed]

10 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Meditation is difficult and not everyone can do it.  In the East, only monks tend to meditate, and everyone else just does merit, in the hopes of becoming a monk in the next life.  Also, before they would even be allowed to meditate they would need to practice morality for several years to calm the mind.    It was westerners who believed and insisted they can instantly meditate.  Osho noticed westerners had a hard time relaxing the mind due to growing up in a Christian culture, so he developed dynamic meditation.  If your mind keeps spinning you can’t get anywhere.   I have been meditating for over 20 years, but I never experienced the state of Samadhi I had with 5-meo-DMT.  The voice had totally stopped and there was complete silence.  One reason to take psychedelics is for purification – to go into the shadow world and purge trauma from the body.  It’s the trauma that keeps the mind spinning.  Ayahausca is useful for purging.     

Nice! Thanks for sharing your experience! I would really like to learn how to attain samadhi on my own lol. But I will still keep my mind open to the possibility of plant medicine. I would just really like to be my own medicine  

 

9 hours ago, SamueLSD said:

You eat plants and other chemicals that affect your mind every day, and you have done so your whole life. You're high on chemicals right now. Such is homeostasis.

What makes those chemicals any better than a psychedelic? 

 Don't see psychedelics as a 'cheat code' to awakening. You still have to do all the inner work that you are already doing to make them useful. 

It's like taking steroids to get really strong, you still have to go the gym .  Only difference: they aren't unhealthy, and you're doing it for higher consciousness.

Good point. I would much rather go to the gym and gain my muscle without the use of steroids  it makes me feel like I did it completely on my own. Whereas if I took a “special” substance, all of my success is in that and becomes another attachment. 
 

Okay. I think I see your point. Psychedelics aren’t like an Iron Man suit, but rather like the food that I eat every day. I still have to run my marathon, but the food helps me do it. I got it. Ty.

1 hour ago, allislove said:

external vs internal duality collapses to Internal.

Everything is Internal, follow the best feeling thought ??

 

 

I think I will probably start with cannabis and then do mushrooms. But before this, I want to look up the long-term effects.

Oh I got it. The way that I view psychedelics is like the movie Limitless with Bradley Cooper. The drug helped him attain high states of consciousness, but I would much rather do it on my own because all of his intelligence was found in the drug, not from himself. 

[Forestluv]

19 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

"High and low consciousness states" happens in Consciousness.

The baseball player is good at swinging a ? 

15 hours ago, Loving Radiance said:

You mean the practices were enhanced like meditation on steroids but the steroids left 'marks' on your state of being?

I’m not spiritually gifted. I was just an average practitioner in the sangha. When I all of a sudden seemed to get the deeper stuff, it got people’s attention. They didn’t think “He must be using psychedelics”. They thought “Wow, he has turned a corner and his meditation practice has reached a new level”.

From a personal perspective, I suppose it could be framed like taking steroids and leaving “marks“. Another way to look at it would be. going on a retreat with an extraordinary spiritual teacher you resonate with. Upon returning to your sangha, the people say: “Wow, you had a great retreat and made amazing progress. You are so fortunate to have a teacher like that. You have advanced to another level”. Yet when they find out the teacher was 5-Meo, they re-contextualize as “That’s like doing steroids. It isn’t real. You are speaking Maya delusions”.

At times it goes into bizarro world. Last week I was telling a friend about observations / experiences I’ve had with entanglement. She became intrigued saying things like “Wow, I never imagined it like that before. That opens up a new area for me”. Yet then she pauses and says “Wait a minute. Did you get those insights during sober practice or during a psychedelic trip?”. . . It’s such a silly question to me because it is all integrated and mixed together. I don’t even remember if it was sober or psychedelic. Perhaps fragments arose in different mindsets and synthesized together. Yet for her, it is a standard of realness. If I say “The insights arose sober, while I was meditating all day in nature”, she will say “Omigosh! This is so deep and insightful - tell me more”. Yet if I say “These insights arose while tripping in nature”, she will say “Those aren’t true insights, they are delusions. Let’s talk about something else”. . . It’s a weird filter to me. 

[Javfly33]

@Forestluv Why you think there are still so much people that dismiss psychedelics as a valid way to extract insights from reality ? After all with meditation, chanting, sports, or whatever, even if you change it in a less intense way, you still are changing brain chemistry.

Funny enough that you are talking about entanglement, it seems people attached to the idea that the insights and realizations happened through sober methods are the only ones valid, are thinking about sober methods as a method that is not entangled with reality, when in fact "sober" is just a particular state of the brain, the sober state is not an objective state, is another subjective random strate, just as being on 5-MeO is in another state of the brain. Maybe this people are clueless to this simple observation still.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Javfly33

[Jodistrict]

Also keep in mind that most Americans have been propagandized by the corrupt "War on Drugs".  That combined with the American myth of the “individual”.    In Mexico, there is an acceptance of these medicines, knowledgeable practitioners connected with the indigenous culture, and a respect for alternate methods of healing.   That’s why I only work with psychedelics in Mexico.  

Edited November 1, 2020 by Jodistrict

[Forestluv]

30 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Forestluv Why you think there are still so much people that dismiss psychedelics as a valid way to extract insights from reality ? 

I’m cool with people creating constructs of “awakening” and saying psychedelics won’t help in achieving that goal. For example, if we define awakening as learning to speak a foreign language fluently, psychedelic use probably won’t help. A better method would be to live within the foreign culture for 3-4 years such that you have to speak the language 24/7. Yet if someone makes rapid progress using psychedelics and is speaking the foreign language fluently in 1 year, it’s silly to say their fluency doesn’t count because they didn’t do it the old fashioned way. Yet if someone tried to use psychedelics to learn the language and was babbling nonsense, then it’s fair to say psychedelics didn’t help. . . And this is based on their own standards. We could create various constructs of “awakening”. We could create constructs of “awakening” that would be extremely difficult to realize without psychedelics. Yet if someone did it sober, my hat is off to him. There are some things spiritualists like Deepak Chopra say and I’m like “Dang, how did he realize that without psychedelics? That’s impressive”. Yet some people are spiritually gifted. I wasn’t one of those people. 

This is why direct experience is so important. Ten years ago, I was confused by Zen koans, sutras, Rupert Spira,  Buddhist dharma talks, nonduality, neo-advaita etc. I didn’t get it and couldn’t speak that language.  Now I get it and can have conversations in that language. It’s silly to me for someone to ask what percentage of that understanding came from sober meditation, time in nature, listening to nonduality speakers, psychedelic trips, Kriss yoga, vinyasa yoga, journaling, sensory deprivation tanks etc. And if the percentage of insights that came from psychedelics is over a certain threshold, it means the person who speaks the language isn’t really speaking the language? What percentage would this be? If 27% of my understanding came from psychedelic trips, is that too much? What is I did yoga on a micro-dose of LSD? Does that count as a “yoga-induced insight” or a “psychedelic-inducted insight”? And it’s all inter-connected. Some insights might be seeded during a psychedelic trip, yet appear as a “catchable” insight the next day while walking in nature. Does that count as a psychedelic insight or a sober nature insight? 

Creating two categories of “sober” or “psychedelic” is overly simplistic. Those that do cannot see how it’s all inter-related.

[Shin]

If you drove from your house to the restaurant, you aren't actually at the restaurant.

You can only go to the restaurant if you walk, driving doesn't count.

 

Driving ?

PSEUDO-WALKING !!!!!!

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Shin

[Gesundheit]

13 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Creating two categories of “sober” or “psychedelic” is overly simplistic.

In this context, “sober” correlates with stage Orange thinking, and “psychedelic” more with Green, I think. From an ego-mind's pov, it makes perfect sense to create that distinction cuz it's not looking for truth but rather to re-enforce itself, and blurring that distinction would be very threatening.

When it comes to truth, the distinction itself is not important but the insights are important. Are the insights true or delusional? It does not matter if you're sober and delusional or psychedelic and not delusional. Your insights are what matters. But generally, and more often than not, psychedelic users are delusional to high degrees. Or aren't they?

[r0ckyreed]

15 minutes ago, Shin said:

If you drove from your house to the restaurant, you aren't actually at the restaurant.

You can only go to the restaurant if you walk, driving doesn't count.

But notice that if going to the restaurant requires you to have to own a car, then what is your enlightenment worth without the car? You become attached to the car because it gets you there rather than relying on your self-discipline.
 

If you cannot go to the restaurant and battle through the journey it takes to get there, then there is something missing. It’s like I said with the Iron Man metaphor, “If you are nothing without the suit, then it doesn’t belong to you.” Iron Man is something with the suit and he can get to the restaurant by walking. He only uses the suit to enhance the virtues that he already possesses. The suit is not what makes Tony Stark the Iron Man, it is his intelligence and heroism that are found within. 
 

It’s like I said with the Limitless Bradley Cooper movie. If you need a substance to reach enlightenment and mystical states, then what is it worth? You get those insights, but at the end of the day, if you cannot reach higher conscious states of Love and Being without drugs, then what is it worth? It creates this dependency on the substance, rather than on yourself. What is Bradley Cooper’s intelligence without the drug? I would much rather generate and embody wisdom, love, and Truth from within and see it every day rather than obtaining it from means outside of myself. See what I mean?

Edited November 1, 2020 by r0ckyreed