I'm Canadian, but tell me why Biden over Trump?

[7thLetter]

@Hatfort I already admit that I don't have enough knowledge in this area, what I know is based on what little bits of knowledge I've acquired over a few months.

I'm also trying to refer to spiral dynamics to try and understand both party's perspective. At the surface level, Republican/Trump = Red/Orange, Biden = Blue/Green. Like I mentioned in the thread, Biden wants to transition into an environment-friendly future for the US, which is quite a Blue/Green thing to do. And in order for his plan to play out, it would cost thousands, maybe millions of jobs and more government spending. Which is bad for the economy right? That's the basic idea I had about Joe Biden. When it comes to Trump, doesn't seem like he's too focused on an environment-friendly future, probably wants to keep it the same way and focus on other issues. Makes sense when you say Republicans are focused on the elites, but I was under the impression that, that is good for the economy. If big businesses are doing well, then wouldn't that mean more jobs? But if the elites are corrupt and selfish, then I guess not.

I'm also thinking about the impact a Biden win or Trump win would have on the markets. In general, how the markets move are based on people's outlook and emotions on the future of the economy. But of course we've seen the US stock market grow like crazy over the past couple months during a recession so that's not always the case. But a lot of gurus on Youtube are saying that the Fed has been pumping money into the stock market to create an illusion that the economy is doing well, also of course to make the rich get richer. Could've possibly been a part of Trump's plan to earn himself some more votes for re-election. But despite all that, my point is though, the markets seem to favor a Trump win over a Biden win. So if that's the case then he may as well be better for the economy, overall.

 

[Hatfort]

4 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

@Hatfort I already admit that I don't have enough knowledge in this area, what I know is based on what little bits of knowledge I've acquired over a few months.

I'm also trying to refer to spiral dynamics to try and understand both party's perspective. At the surface level, Republican/Trump = Red/Orange, Biden = Blue/Green. Like I mentioned in the thread, Biden wants to transition into an environment-friendly future for the US, which is quite a Blue/Green thing to do. And in order for his plan to play out, it would cost thousands, maybe millions of jobs and more government spending. Which is bad for the economy right? That's the basic idea I had about Joe Biden. When it comes to Trump, doesn't seem like he's too focused on an environment-friendly future, probably wants to keep it the same way and focus on other issues. Makes sense when you say Republicans are focused on the elites, but I was under the impression that, that is good for the economy. If big businesses are doing well, then wouldn't that mean more jobs? But if the elites are corrupt and selfish, then I guess not.

I'm also thinking about the impact a Biden win or Trump win would have on the markets. In general, how the markets move are based on people's outlook and emotions on the future of the economy. But of course we've seen the US stock market grow like crazy over the past couple months during a recession so that's not always the case. But a lot of gurus on Youtube are saying that the Fed has been pumping money into the stock market to create an illusion that the economy is doing well, also of course to make the rich get richer. Could've possibly been a part of Trump's plan to earn himself some more votes for re-election. But despite all that, my point is though, the markets seem to favor a Trump win over a Biden win. So if that's the case then he may as well be better for the economy, overall.

No worries, be open to learn and you will.

For the economy to work it needs the money to be flowing, so as many people as possible with a decent purchasing power making businesses work by their purchasings, literally. If you have a huge part of the population working for a wage that doesn't even cover their basic needs or that go bankrupt because they get a disease and can't face the medical bills, then the economy can't grow and if it does only for the elites, not to the economy of people in general. So why are not we doing this? A bigger living wage or a medicare for all go against the short term interest of the elites, they want as much money as they can and as fast as it's possible. What else happens? Who has the power to influence and control what's on the media that reaches all houses? The corporations that pay their publicity and the elites. The Internet is big, but there's still a huge amount of boomers that still get fed by the traditional TV. I'm sorry, but, as you, they think elites making even more money is good for the economy, bullshit. The internet is not free of the influence of corporations and elites, they are all over it, but there are at least some chances to get some independent information here and there.

Green only focusing on the environment is a very superficial view of them. But, again, the environment is not that disconnected from the economy and society. At the very begining of the economic chain, we take our energy, fuel and resources from nature and we impact it. If a corporation is making huge amounts of gains by using the water of a river and polluting it, to make a simple example, who has to pay for a treatment system so local people can still enjoy the river or at the very least not be intoxicated by it? The taxpayers or the corporation itself with part of their gains? If the corporations take care of it, that's bad for them, so how does hold up the notion of elites doing well is good for the economy here? It does not.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Hatfort

[Hatfort]

@7thLetter

A bit about spiral dynamics, as I see it on this election:

• Republicans: Red - Blue - Orange
• Democrats: Blue - Orange - Green

Trump is red himself and there is a significant part of the US population red too, all of them are going to vote for him. There was a woman recently elected for congress, I think, I don't recall the name, but on her ad she was literally holding a rifle and shooting and that's the lunatic Republicans chose as their representative. There is a video of Leo about content vs structure. Well, the content may be different, but the structure of this video is like an ISIS or Alcaeda terrorist one, totally crazy. People rallying with firearms like it's normal in front of the police. Well, mostly whites, I don't think the police would allow other ethnic groups to behave like that.

Trump and Biden both can appeal to blues as a patriarchal patriotic figure. Blues don't care about the environment at all, unless the waste touches their door, in that case, they may go for Biden for his green touches. They are also triggered by all kinds of gender issues, which are usually addressed by greens, so they get defensive with those, and may vote for someone like Trump, who is perceived as the antithesis of feminism. Fox news just has to put those issues in front of their noses to trigger them, why speak about poverty and inequality when you can about trans toilets instead.

Trump has also some kind of businessman reputation that appeals to oranges, but as fast as you scratch this surface, you can see the vacuum behind or the corruption in the worst case. Oranges leaning to green will vote for Biden.

The thing is, Democrats need solid greens voting and maybe campaigning for them, it's also a significant part of the population of the US. Those won't vote for Trump, but it's not sure they will vote for Biden either, that's the problem of the Democrats. Some will understand Biden is the best we can reach right now, those are leaning to yellow. Others want all or nothing and they often get nothing, like perhaps now, we'll see.

[7thLetter]

@Hatfort With the idea of the corruption of greedy elites aside, I posted this thread to try and understand why Biden is a better option than Trump. With your insight, we now know that each president and each political party has some kind of hidden agenda in favor of the elites. That's great.

But I'm much more interested in the comparison of what each President will do for the country while in office, to understand what kind of effects their plans they decide to implement will have on the country and understand why you favor one candidate or the other. Such as, Biden wants to raise taxes on specific individuals earning a certain amount, how does that effect the economy. Biden wants to transition out of certain industries to lean towards a "Green" future for the US, at what cost and how does this effect the economy, etc.

And I want to say, I don't fully understand the ideology of what each political party holds. What I know so far about the 2020 US presidential candidates is what I assume is true about the ideology of the political party they represent.

Today I learned something new. So we know that Joe Biden wants to raise taxes on those earning above $400K/year, that's great for the economy right? Wrong. All the popular multi-million dollar companies that we use on a frequent basis like grocery stores, oil companies like Chevron, fashion companies like Nike or Adidas, and any other popular business you can think of all earn above $400K/year, that means their taxes will be raised. As a result, the cost of their goods and services will increase. Everything from the cost of groceries, gas, clothing, rent, will skyrocket. The overall cost of living has gone up. With taxes being raised on big businesses, this also may have a huge impact on how affordable the cost of labor will be as well. If companies aren't able to afford their employees then mass layoffs will happen. And like you were saying, the economy needs cash flow in order to survive. If the cost of living and taxes will increase, then there won't be that redistribution of money, because its all going to taxes and the increased overall cost of living. The middle-class will be destroyed.

Edited November 6, 2020 by 7thLetter

[Hatfort]

@7thLetter

First of all, right now we are seeing how Trump is not willing to count votes, making baseless claims about fraud. Consider if that behavior, from him or any polititian running, is beneficial for peace in a country, and its economy as a result, as that seems your main focus. 

Second, what you learned today is wrong. Raising taxes to the richest does not produce those apocaliptic results you listed, this is the narrative that sometimes direclty and sometimes more subtly the media funded or owned by those rich elites tell everyone, so we believe them keeping more money is good for the economy, bullshit. If that's so, let's the average people fundraise and give the money to the rich. The contrary is true, taxing the richest, who can afford it because they are still going to continue living very well, will permit the government to create a better welfare for all, even create jobs directly, which will create more jobs indirectly, because those with jobs and their families will have the purchasing power to make the businesses around them work, which will create even more families with higher purchasing power. We would have to address how basic needs as medical treatments or having a roof over your head can be facilitated because make no mistake, there are already heavy regulations marking how these matters work, lobbied by corporate interests to remain as they are, which are extremely costly for the average people, sometimes impossible to afford. This could be totally addressed by taxing the richest reasonably and making better regulations. Or maybe we can tax the homeless, taking their coins from their hats, then we give it to the rich people so they make the economy run right.

Edit: I wish Biden would address the economy better, but he's not going to be that far from Trump, he'll still be devoted to corporate interests mostly, probably slightly less. The one with a decent list of policies was Sanders, like taking the student debt away, another measure directly benefiting the purchasing power of average people. But the election was between Trump and Biden now, so Biden is the right choice by a huge margin, Trump is an incendiary, crazy and authoritarian narcissist, that doesn't even respect the most basic democratic principle. If you are voted, you rule, if not, you get out.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hatfort

[7thLetter]

@Hatfort

I don't disagree that Trump's behavior is flawed and that it would have a negative impact on the people of the US, it certainly will and already has had some kind of impact over the past 4 years of his presidency. But Biden has his fair share of behavior that is looked down upon as well. Like I said in the start of this thread, both candidates are terrible, but if Americans had to choose one then who?

I never said I believe big businesses keeping more money is good for the economy. In a previous post I said "If big businesses are doing well, then wouldn't that mean more jobs? But if the elites are corrupt and selfish, then I guess not." Seems like you're taking that and making it out to be part of my beliefs, even though I said "I guess not." Because I definitely don't think that. Although I do believe that if big businesses have more money then I assume they would be inclined to make more lucrative investments within' their company in order to make them more profits, which would then create more jobs, that's what I mean. Thousands of jobs exist today because big businesses are growing, they made profits as a small company in the beginning then they continued to re-invest that money in order to grow. This is what it means to scale a business, and any further progress from here all goes up. Don't tell me they started off with thousands of employees from the very beginning and didn't invest profits in order to create those jobs. If they don't want to make more money, grow as a business, and keep everything the way it is now just to milk profits and run away in the end, then so be it. But I doubt they have that kind of mentality, I'm sure they'd want to scale up.

In my understanding, it sounds great on paper to have the government tax the rich because they can afford it, but wouldn't you agree that they possibly would just increase the cost of the goods and services that they provide in order to keep up with their previous standard of living? "Before the Biden/Harris tax plan I was making $5M/year, now I'm making half, let me increase the cost of goods to have my $5M/year back." Basically. But if regulations are put into place like you're saying, to combat the idea of businesses increasing the cost of goods/services then sure that would make sense.

Whatever happens, whoever becomes president, I do believe the US will face the biggest financial crisis in history in the near future, its inevitable. Especially with the biggest debt bubble continuing to skyrocket, $27 trillion in debt, that's just insane.

Edited November 6, 2020 by 7thLetter

[Hatfort]

@7thLetter

I agree the crisis is huge whoever becomes president. But, again, benefiting the elites even more is not what is going to get us out from it, it's basically the opposite. To reactivate the economy, inequality must be addressed. That doesn't mean everyone must be rich, but it means that poverty has to be minimized. The rich has to be taxed more, that's just a must if you want to make the economy grow. The biggest corporations may be so powerful that they can even threaten and blackmail by playing with prizes to some extent like you say, but that's why citizens are supposed to have an institituion elected by them, the government, to mediate bettwen them and those extremelly powerfull entities. To tell them when they are violating the basic rights of people with their practices, when the society cannot afford those levels of inequality or that on a medical crisis like this we can't squeeze average people more, because they barely make it to pay their basic needs, so we can only turn for money to those who have most.

A government should have that role, but that is not the case, what they do is approve laws dictated by corporations, no surprise the rich are getting richer, and more people face poverty or its edge. Lobbying the government by corporations should stop, men and women voted to be in charge are there to serve the citizens. Corporations must not pay polititians, they just gotta pay their fair share of taxes. There is a place for big corporations and there's nothing ilegal about making money and wanting to make more, after they pay their taxes first and their practices are accounted as legal.

Biden will concede less than Trump to corporations. But this election wasn't about that at all, I don't think Biden would have won for being slightly fairer. That couldn't move so many greens to vote, not after they've tasted a bit of what Sanders was proposing. But after they've seen the real face of Trump and perhaps regretting not having voted against him in 2016. The vote for Biden was a vote against Trump. 

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