Free Will vs Determinism

[SS10]

Honestly, I am a new member here - but i expected better arguments than what is currently being presented.

[justfortoday]

Sweet Jesus. 

[Shin]

1 minute ago, SS10 said:

Honestly, I am a new member here - but i expected better arguments than what is currently being presented.

Better arguments wouldn't really answer the question.

It doesn't do anything if you changed your mind about that, it wouldn't change even if you were extremely open minded to the idea.

It's the kind of thing that can only be understood through direct experience, not rationalization and logic.

[The Lucid Dreamer]

5 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@The Lucid Dreamer Sounds like your just parroting Leo, as I said - you live as a "you". Despite "reality" being no different from a dream, whilst "you" are in such a dream - you behave as a "you". Even when you are awakened, "you" are still in the "dream/reality" therefore, you have survival needs. Out of that need to survive you become a "you". You will only stop being "you" once you are "dead" in the conventional sense.

I don’t care if you live as a you. It’s an illusion.  Even the feeling that I have that I am writing this of my own volition is an illusion.  It’s just happening.

Libertarian free will as is typically thought of in our culture is just not a thing.  I figured this out way before I ever heard of Leo or any other spiritual teacher, so don’t even. ;P

 

[Shin]

6 minutes ago, The Lucid Dreamer said:

I don’t care if you live as a you. It’s an illusion.  Even the feeling that I have that I am writing this of my own volition is an illusion.  It’s just happening.

Libertarian free will as is typically thought of in our culture is just not a thing.  I figured this out way before I ever heard of Leo or any other spiritual teacher, so don’t even. ;P

 

It's an illusion for you, not for us.

You're trying to explain what colors are like to blind people and are pissed because we don't understand  

Edited October 29, 2020 by Shin

[SS10]

@Byun Sean Look im not sure you understand what I am saying. In the wild, when humans saw lions/snakes, and we received the emotion of fear. It is instinctive to respond in the fight or flight mode. If you wanted to find out what caused that fear and were it came from (the same way in which you wanna do with thoughts), you have such will to do so,but it would result in the possible death from that very snake/lion. God imposes the limit of not knowing where thoughts come from on on you (or on himself technically), so it can better his (your) survival. From the snakes perspective, doesn't matter why he is hungry, the snake doesn't think why it it hungry just that it is hungry - it just responds on such emotion, resulting in its attempt to eat you. If the snake truly realized that the emotion of hunger came out of nowhere and there was no meaning to it - it would literally be the end of his life. So what I am saying is that God imposes that thoughts / emotions come from nowhere for your on good/survival.

[SS10]

@Shin Haha well "you" do care because if "you" truly believed that there was no "you", you would realise that "you" are "me" and "you" wouldn't be arguing with "me" and defending "your" position so much lol

[The0Self]

9 minutes ago, SS10 said:

Despite "reality" being no different from a dream, whilst "you" are in such a dream - you behave as a "you". Even when you are awakened, "you" are still in the "dream/reality" therefore, you have survival needs. Out of that need to survive you become a "you". You will only stop being "you" once you are "dead" in the conventional sense.

“When ‘you’ are awakened“ is an oxymoron. To be enlightened is to be dead to any will whatsoever; to see no important substantive difference between the end of the world and dropping an ice cream cone on the ground — there’s just what is. Before the me apparently collapses, it’s recognized it was never there. It didn’t happen.

[The Lucid Dreamer]

5 minutes ago, Shin said:

It's an illusion for you, not for us.

You're trying to explain what colors are like to blind people and are pissed because we don't understand  

 I’m not pissed at all. And even if I was, it’d be an illusion cause there is no “me” to get pissed. 
 

 

[Moksha]

14 minutes ago, SS10 said:

Honestly, I am a new member here - but i expected better arguments than what is currently being presented.

Did you see my answers to your specific arguments back on page 2?

[SS10]

@The0Self ok Mr"The0Self", what "you" is is just an identity, so "you" have built your identity of have "0 Self", which funny enough is an identity lmao. Everyone on this forum copies leo by saying that there is no "you" but live your whole life as if there was a "you" Again, im going to take what you act rather than what you say. 

[Shin]

4 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@Shin Haha well "you" do care because if "you" truly believed that there was no "you", you would realise that "you" are "me" and "you" wouldn't be arguing with "me" and defending "your" position so much lol

If you can logic the answer out of that question then good for you

From my point of view that's a huge waste of time though

[SS10]

@The Lucid Dreamer See my point. everyone acts as if there is a "you", so im not gonna accept that you genuinely believe that there is no "you" when you act as a self everyday. If you really belived there was no "you", "you" would literally not drink, eat or sleep. As there would be no "you" to maintain. You literally wouldnt be arguing against me if there was no "you" lol

Edited October 29, 2020 by SS10

[The0Self]

8 minutes ago, SS10 said:

From the snakes perspective, doesn't matter why he is hungry, the snake doesn't think why it it hungry just that it is hungry - it just responds on such emotion, resulting in its attempt to eat you. If the snake truly realized that the emotion of hunger came out of nowhere and there was no meaning to it - it would literally be the end of his life. So what I am saying is that God imposes that thoughts / emotions come from nowhere for your on good/survival.

This is close but actually kind of the other way around. The snake is not alive as a self, it is just alive. The human is alive as a self, in its own dream, so yes in the human person’s case it has to avoid the realization to survive. The snake already has no ego, thus nothing needs to be done to survive.

[SS10]

@The0Self Of course the snake has an ego, if it didn't it would literally eat itself instead of trying to eat you. Moreover, it wouldn't even try to eat anything because there would be no "you" to maintain. The snake is a "you" because its separated itself from its surroundings.

Lmao you lot dont get this do you...

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@The0Self ok Mr"The0Self", what "you" is is just an identity, so "you" have built your identity of have "0 Self", which funny enough is an identity lmao. Everyone on this forum copies leo by saying that there is no "you" but live your whole life as if there was a "you" Again, im going to take what you act rather than what you say. 

Fair enough, but this account was made a while ago. The title means nothing at all. Derived meaning from Ramana Maharshi at the time, or something.

And it’s not an identity. It’s a character.

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@The0Self Of course the snake has an ego, if it didn't it would literally eat itself instead of trying to eat you. Moreover, it wouldn't even try to eat anything because there would be no "you" to maintain. The snake is a "you" because its separated itself from its surroundings.

Lmao you lot dont get this do you...

Well at least we know where your sticking point is. The snake is in fact not a self. Neither is the human though, but the human experiences its surroundings with meaning and purpose imbued in it. The snake doesn’t experience meaning and purpose at all.

[Moksha]

The conversation seems to be drifting in the direction of identity rather than free will, but maybe that's what the universe intended.

Snakes and every other being are created by and infused with Source, just at different frequencies. Source is the essence of the rocks, the trees, and us.

Quote

Without me nothing can exist, neither animate nor inanimate. Bhagavad Gita 10:39

Quote

You are the father of the universe, of the animate and the inanimate. Bhagavad Gita 11:43

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Moksha

[Nahm]

@SS10

It is possible to be dreaming and believing that you are a character in a dream and thus not realize you are dreaming. There could be snakes in a dream. There could be stuff like free will and determinism talked about in the dream. These ideas and concepts could seem to make sense in a dream. But if the dream told you it was a dream, how would you know If this statement makes sense?

[SS10]

@The0Self How do you know that a snake doesn't experience meaning at all? Are you looking through the eyes of a snake or a human? What is the difference, were humans not once snakes? When did humans develop the concept of meaning? 100 million years ago when we diverged from snakes? If not, when? When we became monkeys? Does a monkey experience meaning? If not, why not? If they do, why dont snakes? Is meaning something thats out there in the world, or something that humans made up? Meaning is after all different from everyone, how do you know that a snakes meaning is such that it has no meaning?

Even if they didn't have meaning, the snake is still an ego because it has recognized itself as different from his environment and seeks to preserve itsself. Which is the fundamental nature of what an ego is.