The problem with radical open-mindedness

[Moksha]

Absolute open-mindedness requires letting go of everything. Leo talked about testing, but testing is based on underlying assumptions about reality. If you let go even of the assumptions, everything is equally plausible.

Why would you want to do that? The idea that absolute open-mindedness is desirable is a value judgment in its own right. You can't avoid making assumptions. At best, the most open-minded can choose the assumptions that are the foundation for testing their beliefs.

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit said:

Full openness requires literally insane amount of courage. That's full enlightenment.

Can you imagine if you were like.. up in heaven somewhere disembodied, and God was like "ok, well I want you to go do some awesome shit but the thing is, you can't do that stuff unless you have a body and the problem with having as body is that it can get hurt or killed, so you'll feel fear sometimes. In fact you might even forget that ultimately, you're not a body." 

Can you imagine how much courage it would take to say yes to THAT? 

You're already courageous AF. You just forgot there's no such thing as courage, cause there's no such thing as you. 

[allislove]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

How do I test the concept of "others are imaginary"? In my direct experience I can't for example undo or unimagine you. 

5-MeO ?

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Absolute open-mindedness requires letting go of everything.

I once had a really warm goose down winter jacket and comforter. Then I realized I had been sick for weeks because I was actually allergic to goose down. It was not at all hard to let go of those things I'd previously loved once I saw the connection with suffering. 

[Breakingthewall]

The real open minded is let the mind go, bro 

[Gesundheit]

@mandyjw It's much easier to admit that I am not enlightened and that I don't deserve that title yet. The word "enlightenment" exists for a reason. Otherwise, anything anyone says won't mean anything. But no, enlightenment refers to a certain mode of being that is not accessible by most humans. And it's pointless to claim otherwise. If you don't feel like that goal is your calling, then by no means you should force yourself to chase it. To say things about it doesn't mean you have it. It means you don't know what you're talking about.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Moksha]

6 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I once had a really warm goose down winter jacket and comforter. Then I realized I had been sick for weeks because I was actually allergic to goose down. It was not at all hard to let go of those things I'd previously loved once I saw the connection with suffering. 

Letting go of the causes for our suffering is what enlightenment actually is. Even enlightened people still have beliefs though. Can you name anyone that is 100% free of beliefs and isn't dead?

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@mandyjw It's much easier to admit that I am not enlightened and that I don't deserve that title yet. 

I really respect that, but there are subtle ways in which we hold ourselves apart from the things we want. The journey is an inherent component of the destination. 

5 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

 But no, enlightenment refers to a certain mode of being that is not accessible by most humans. 

Humans can't access it. It's not accessible by anyone, it's access itself. It's the force, the source that drives life. It's an ongoing quest of the human to align with it. There are some spectacular breakthroughs along the way. But you can't say the force that drives life is ultimately not accessible to anyone alive. It precedes it. 

2 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Can you name anyone that is 100% free of beliefs and isn't dead?

So you have a belief in beliefs then? Such fixation on specific people here! There already aren't specific people, starting with yourself.  

[Shin]

18 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@mandyjw It's much easier to admit that I am not enlightened and that I don't deserve that title yet. The word "enlightenment" exists for a reason. Otherwise, anything anyone says won't mean anything. But no, enlightenment refers to a certain mode of being that is not accessible by most humans. And it's pointless to claim otherwise. If you don't feel like that goal is your calling, then by no means you should force yourself to chase it. To say things about it doesn't mean you have it. It means you don't know what you're talking about.

What do you think you have to do, or change about yourself to deserve it ?

[Mu_]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

It's a very foundational component of Leo's teachings. One cannot be following Leo's work without being radically open-minded. Also I found it's the key to successful contemplation and unlocking deep truths and insights.  However I discovered there is a huge problem.. The mind is fundamentally afraid of being open.. The mind has a natural tendency to be closed off from radical ideas or new possibilities. Because being closed minded is what grounds your sense of reality. You look at the world through a specific lense and you assume a bunch of things about the world that are basically unquestionable. You do this to survive. You can't survive if you assume that you know nothing and you're equally open to any information. As soon as you start entertaining new ideas and open your mind to change your entire worldview.. You start to feel like you are losing a part of what grounds your reality. This can be noticed for example with  religious people who are so attached to their beliefs.. and then they discover that religion is just bullshit and there is no sky daddy up there taking care of you.. Yeah that might send them to an existential crisis.
My question is what is the limit of open mindedness? Can one be open minded to literally anything? Is that how you reach truth? But what you notice is if you are Infinitely open minded.. You will just end up knowing nothing and not able to know a thing.  There must be a balance. But where do we draw the line?

Can you open your mind to the following possibilities :

1 that you have no brain or any internal organs. Literally. After all have you ever seen them? 
2 that you are the only conscious being in the entire universe and everyone else are just figments of your mind.
3 that Leo is an alien not a human.
4 that your mom got born out of a chicken.(that's an example from Leo's open-mindedness video lol).
5 that the world ceases to exist as soon you stop looking and gets rendered once again when you look again . Like a video game.
5that the flying spaghetti monster is real. He created this world. And he will punish you if you don't worship him in this life.
6 that the entire world that you can see through the media is not real.
7 that their might be a space Kangaroo standing behind you your entire life but you couldn't see him cuz he turns with you
.
Can you honestly open your mind and entertain such ideas?  Notice the emotional  reaction against some of these ideas. and notice that you can't actually disprove any of them with 100% certainty.
You can't open your mind to these possibilities not because they are false(you don't know that) or because they are stupid lol.. But because they will threaten your sense of reality and everything you thought you know about the world might get thrown out the window. It's like you have to be close minded to survive . What would happen if you become infinitely open minded?

One thing thats always curious and obvious once pointed out, which hopefully you can laugh with me with, is anything said is always "blah blah blah".  Again don't take offense to this because its always true of what I say as well.

For example "The Problem with Radical Open mindedness",  Ok lets say I or someone broadly knows what you mean, whats to say it would have to include the questions

"1 that you have no brain or any internal organs. Literally. After all have you ever seen them? 
2 that you are the only conscious being in the entire universe and everyone else are just figments of your mind.
3 that Leo is an alien not a human.
4 that your mom got born out of a chicken.(that's an example from Leo's open-mindedness video lol).
5 that the world ceases to exist as soon you stop looking and gets rendered once again when you look again . Like a video game.
5that the flying spaghetti monster is real. He created this world. And he will punish you if you don't worship him in this life.
6 that the entire world that you can see through the media is not real.
7 that their might be a space Kangaroo standing behind you your entire life but you couldn't see him cuz he turns with you"

And whats to say it has to include having to prove those things wrong in order to be free of them in some sort of way. 

Again none of the 1-7 mean anything to begin with except in your statement they do, and you could because of that, they don't need to be thought about or proved wrong or felt....

So good day and, blah blah blah to you sir.......

 

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I really respect that, but there are subtle ways in which we hold ourselves apart from the things we want. The journey is an inherent component of the destination.

 

You can non-duality your way out of everything. That doesn't mean you have everything figured out.

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Humans can't access it. It's not accessible by anyone, it's access itself. It's the force, the source that drives life. It's an ongoing quest of the human to align with it. There are some spectacular breakthroughs along the way. But you can't say the force that drives life is ultimately not accessible to anyone alive. It precedes it.

What you're talking about is just a realization of one's true nature. And it doesn't mean you're enlightened. It means you're self-realized. Self-realization is a piece of cake. Enlightenment isn't.

[Gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, Shin said:

What do you think you have to do, or change about yourself to deserve it ?

Let go of every last attachment, including language.

[VeganAwake]

“What is already” is nothing to the “I am” seeking energy, which is looking for something knowable. As the “I am” and the experience of real separation are illusory and what is truly longed for is never lost, any personal search to overcome separation or find what is already, is utterly hopeless.

A perspective arising out of an illusory „real“ separation will suggest, that personal effort such as being aware or more aware, being conscious or more conscious, being in the now or being present can lead to the end of separation. These suggestions in essence take the seeker prisoner. Confirming the hope, that what is longed for will be or could be found through personal effort. However: No experience, realization, or process of becoming could possibly lead to the dissolution of the already illusory experience of „real“ separation. The “I am” is hopelessly and choicelessly trapped in a dream of personal process, in its’ efforts to find something for itself, thereby missing what is already: unrecognizable freedom.

The end of the “I am experience“ is the recognition, that there never was one. Real Separation is a dream.  

With this recognition, the need to compromise with the seekers' expectations of becoming, naturally also ends. The assertion, that what is truly longed for would or could be found as the result of a process, is revealed to be completely misguided. Nothing leads to „what is“ already. Non-separation is never realized, found, or known. But can be recognized by no-one in the falling away of the illusory experience of real separation.

The end of seeking is not the fulfillment of the individuals' need for answers about what life is, what death is, nor is it the satisfaction of the need for meaning and purpose. It is the end of the need to know, which is the end of questions and search for answers as the causeless end of the questioner which never was".

-- Jim Newman

[Moksha]

24 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

So you have a belief in beliefs then? Such fixation on specific people here! There already aren't specific people, starting with yourself.  

Yes, I have a belief in beliefs. Which is my point. You can't not believe anything. Even not believing is a belief.

The idea that there aren't specific people is also a belief. In the ultimate sense, I agree with you; but it's a belief for me too.

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You can't not believe anything.

You could. When buda was in that river idk how many years watching the river flow, he wasn't believing nothing, only living the eternal moment. This is enlightenment

Edited October 29, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

19 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

What you're talking about is just a realization of one's true nature. And it doesn't mean you're enlightened. It means you're self-realized. Self-realization is a piece of cake. Enlightenment isn't.

Agree 100%. Enlightenment isn't just realizing who you are, it is integrating who you are with the human form. Or put another way it is disintegrating the human form.

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Your mind is already completely open. You don't have a mind, you are awareness. No one can tell you what will happen the openness is the question and the answer itself. 

I know what you mean. But still relatively speaking we can talk about a mind and levels of open mindedness. We tend to think a religious person is less open to various worldviews than a secular person 

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

"the greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"

The mind likes to put things in a box and check it off as being known, so it can move on to the next box to check off.

This quote points to: when you believe you already know something, the mind tends to subconsciously skip over it without inquiring deeply enough... this is why it's often said to become child like, as if looking at something for the first time.

This is why the middle path is so often referred to with Enlightenment work.

It's not about landing on one side or the other... staying emotionally neutral during deep introspection.

Open and grounded simultaneously sorting through the wheat and the chaff like Leo says...? ❤

Beautifully said bro ?

[Moksha]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You could. When buda was in that river idk how many years watching the river flow, he wasn't believing nothing, only living the eternal moment. This is enlightenment

Even then, he believed in suffering and the end of suffering.

[Shin]

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Let go of every last attachment, including language.

What if I told you you think you need to do that in order to not awaken right now ?

[Carl-Richard]

You should be able to spread your wings but also flap them around.