No matter what, I'll keep backsliding and escaping

[4201]

Despite all the suffering that it causes, I keep feeling compelled to escape the present moment. Times and times again I have experienced the peacefulness and wonderfulness of the present moment and at other times the suffering of escapism through various forms. This past experience doesn't seem to matter when I'm confronted with the choice to face or to escape. Escaping is 9 times out of 10 the selected route.

I'm at this point where I know for sure that I can be present, even right now and that there's nothing to be found in escaping that moment, but still I keep escaping it. I know exactly what to stop doing, and I know to stop doing that would bring me peace. Somehow I'm still unwilling to do it.

I feel discouraged because everytime I take a step forward, become aware I then end up taking 3 steps backward shortly after. I could steer myself in the good direction tonight, but the idea that tomorrow I'll just screw it all up again is insanely discouraging.

"Time" is a thought. "Tomorrow" is a thought. But I care about being awake tomorrow, and the day after.  

 

Is my drive to escape really a survival drive that I can't do nothing about? Or is there a deep misconception within me that compels me to do what's wrong. I wish there would be such a belief for me to see but I just don't see it. Perhaps there's a simple belief of "a me that tries to escape"? None of those considerations leads anywhere. It does feel like that the source of my struggle is the doubt of me staying awake. I just don't believe it. No matter how often I'll wake up I'll follow by crashing down shortly after. No matter how fancy or ordinary the awakening is, I always end up backsliding and it turns out I'm more often low than high.

 

[Mu_]

The now is overrated.  What exactly are you doing to "escape".  Perhaps its not as much as a problem as your making it out to be.  Love man, just love.  Give yourself some slack along, with others to mess up just the same.

[Moksha]

@4201 I totally relate. I get frustrated with myself, wishing I could be perpetually present in this moment. But then I realize that the "I" getting frustrated is the ego in disguise. It's just another trap. Once I let go of the "I" and open my eyes to what is, everything changes. I only have to do it here and now, not in the future.

We will continue slipping into our conditioned mind until we suffer enough that we are willing to stay present always. Suffering dissolves the attachments that created our suffering in the first place. That is an awesome realization.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Moksha

[Michal__]

You should gradually increase the time you spend present.

I personally love the STOP method (stop what you are doing, take a deep breath, observe your body and then your surroundings, proceed with whatever you were doing before)

You could easily write down how many times you used the method and perphaps write it in a diary. That way you can easily measure your progress, so that you will know you are progressing even if it doesn't feel like it.

Same with meditation - write down how long were you meditating today and which states of concentration you experienced or which insights came to you.

- 

I don't know if you have any experience working out, but it is the same as lifting weights - in order to get anywhere you have to track your progress.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Michal__

[Nahm]

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

But I care about being awake tomorrow, and the day after.  

This is how you’re recreating the suffering. Awake = there isn’t time, this is infinite being appearing to be consistent. 

“Care” = feeling. 

“But I feel about being awake tomorrow, and the day after”. 

No you actually don’t care / feel that. You THINK you do. 

Awake = Now = You = Love. 

Stop pretending you can think feeling. Stop pretending you can be awake anywhere, or anytime. Awake = Now. You can not be other-than you. Now can not be other than now. 

“Why doesn’t this square peg of thinking fit into this round hole of feeling?”

Who cares really. Just stop pounding it. 

 

“No matter what, I'll keep backsliding and escaping”

That ends with laughing. 

[DianaFr]

@4201 What happens when you escape?

[4201]

28 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This is how you’re recreating the suffering. Awake = there isn’t time, this is infinite being appearing to be consistent. 

“Care” = feeling. 

“But I feel about being awake tomorrow, and the day after”. 

No you actually don’t care / feel that. You THINK you do. 

Awake = Now = You = Love. 

Stop pretending you can think feeling. Stop pretending you can be awake anywhere, or anytime. Awake = Now. You can not be other-than you. Now can not be other than now. 

“Why doesn’t this square peg of thinking fit into this round hole of feeling?”

Who cares really. Just stop pounding it. 

 

“No matter what, I'll keep backsliding and escaping”

That ends with laughing. 

I wish I could stop caring about being awake but whenever I'm not awake I'm also not productive. And if I keep not being productive my current plan for making a source of income from something that passionates me will fall flat, and I will need to fall back to working a job I might not like.

I do plan to chase passive income, precisely for the sake of being able not to care anymore. But for now that's not a priviledge I have.

Perhaps I can still get myself to stop caring about it. Since it seems that caring about it reduces the chances of it from happening. But in this case I am stopping to care about X for the sake of X and not for itself.

@DianaFr Really nothing special. Sometimes I think I will find something at the end of the road but there is nothing to find there. I just binge all day until my back hurts and I'm completely disgusted. If only I could procrastinate for a normal amount of time like a normal person.

@Michal__ Thanks for the tip, that STOP method do seem valuable.

[Moksha]

@4201 It's a Catch-22. Being present empowers you to be more productive in the world of form, but presence requires you not to care about the fruits of your actions. That's why you need a sense of playfulness. Engage fully, but don't take anything too seriously. Easier said than done, I know.

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

I wish I could stop caring about being awake but whenever I'm not awake I'm also not productive.

Just a perspective being offered...connotations, opinion, rather than definitions...just a way to look at this, not me trying to tell you how anything ‘actually’ is....

If we can allow “not awake”, to basically amount to, “I don’t like how I feel right now”...then a new way of looking at this, a new way of thinking about this, a new way of feeling about this might arise. A way which does feel good to you, right now, and is productive.

If “not awake” is really just saying “I don’t like how I feel right now”....then we can inspect, why  - what is it, literally, which does not feel good to you, right now...

If your foot is stuck in a bear trap, it’s most definitely that. If your balls are stuck in a car door someone just slammed, it is most definitely that. If there is no physical factor in your immediate environment which can be said to be the obvious source of the ‘not feeling good right now’...then let us consider the culprit might be the perspective...the way you’re looking at experiencing life, which is not resonating (does not feel good right now). 

If this is the case, or is at least in some way agreeable...then it can only stand to be reasonable, that you must acknowledge this. To feel better, you must acknowledge that the way you’re looking at it currently, is not working, and also does not feel good. Why though, amIright? Why doesn’t the perspective feel good?...is the paramount, pertinent, relevant factor...both in terms of you being productive, and you feeling great right now. 

 

Sacrificing how you feel right now, via the perspective that you are doing so - for the sake of how you will feel in the future, is what is not working for you...right now.

There are existential explanations about time, where the fuck a self might be, yada yada, but if all that does not amount to you feeling great right f’ing now - then who f’ing cares!? AmIright or amIright? 

 

You are learning what ‘letting go’ is. If you don’t like how you feel right now, you must let the present perspective go. 

Then, you must do something, anything at all that you like - until you feel, better. 

Then, in your feeling better, you can re-approach the subject - from a different perspective.

That different perspective, would be the realization that feeling will never be in a future. 

 

I would offer that in this case, “not awake” could be defined as feeling not good now, because you might not be feeling good in the future. If this is the case, this will not work, because feeling is only thought to be in a future, but is actually only now. You, will never actually be ‘in a future’. You are presently, thinking of yourself, as if you were in a future. But it doesn’t feel right, because it is not right. 

 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

And if I keep not being productive my current plan for making a source of income from something that passionates me will fall flat, and I will need to fall back to working a job I might not like.

“If I continue putting how I feel second, focusing on the perspective which does not feel good to me, I will not get a thing accomplished”. 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

I do plan to chase passive income, precisely for the sake of being able not to care anymore. But for now that's not a priviledge I have.

“I am fully capable of letting a perspective go, and relaxing, and focusing on something else that feels better. I am really getting what crazy guy is saying, when he says relaxation is not a thought, but is feeling. Letting go, when I find I have stumbled into not feeling good, is the only option that works. This is because there is a source of good feeling, and it is ever present - but only now. When I ‘go into the future’, I leave this source of feeling good. Feeling is the present, feeling is not in a future. This whacko of a guy has said this a hundred thousand times but I think I might actually entertain this now because I’m getting that this is how I’m creating my own suffering, and life can be in nirvana if I stick with my source of good feeling. If I don’t leave it, how could I ever experience a moment without it. I wonder if this could be because the only point of this experience, is the experience. Maybe if me & my source are like this ??, I will feel great and be productive.” 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

Perhaps I can still get myself to stop caring about it.

If I may...”caring” has been hijacked. It won’t work. It already isn’t. It’s dead to you now. Also, it’s still ‘thinking about yourself’. If you were truly thinking of yourself, how you feel would be put first, without exception. I mean maybe if some guy is falling off a cliff or drowning or whatever, but I’m talking about the way one goes about this life thing. 

Actually letting go, ‘works’. This means actually focusing on something else...feeling good again, getting back to ??. Then....proceed, and kick ass. 

Again, this is no more than a perspective offered. Some say this is bypassing, some say this is the exact opposite of bypassing, some say what you’ve been doing is bypassing. Who cares. Always up to you, and if I may, your source, or, good feeling.  

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

Since it seems that caring about it reduces the chances of it from happening. But in this case I am stopping to care about X for the sake of X and not for itself.

Yourself. ???

[Moksha]

@Nahm Spot on and beautifully said.

[Nahm]

@Moksha ??

[4201]

@Nahm Thank you. It took me a while to digest this answer. I won't respond to every bit to cut it short, but every bit was helpful.

On 27/10/2020 at 2:25 PM, Nahm said:

If we can allow “not awake”, to basically amount to, “I don’t like how I feel right now”...then a new way of looking at this, a new way of thinking about this, a new way of feeling about this might arise. A way which does feel good to you, right now, and is productive.

If “not awake” is really just saying “I don’t like how I feel right now”....then we can inspect, why  - what is it, literally, which does not feel good to you, right now...

If your foot is stuck in a bear trap, it’s most definitely that. If your balls are stuck in a car door someone just slammed, it is most definitely that. If there is no physical factor in your immediate environment which can be said to be the obvious source of the ‘not feeling good right now’...then let us consider the culprit might be the perspective...the way you’re looking at experiencing life, which is not resonating (does not feel good right now). 

The perspective I struggle to let go is of having "wasted my day" after procrastinating for 10-12 hours. I struggle to let it go because I do believe that is true, in the context of achieving something, doing something unrelated for that long is not helping. I also struggle to let it go because when that happen I don't want to "let it slide". I don't want to become complacent and tolerate that. But of course that is just fear, forcing myself to feel bad about something, counter intuitively, doesn't lead me to do less of that thing. Instead I just escape as a way to try and avoid this feeling.

23 hours ago, Nahm said:

Again, this is no more than a perspective offered. Some say this is bypassing, some say this is the exact opposite of bypassing, some say what you’ve been doing is bypassing. Who cares. Always up to you, and if I may, your source, or, good feeling.  

I do struggle with this "bypassing". I struggle to reject a perspective that hasn't been proved wrong, just because it makes me feel bad. This idea creates the image of a delusional person denying a fact that is difficult for them to accept. But of course such a person would feel their own delusion, so the concern is bogus. Furthermore, this idea that a perspective have to be proved wrong is very prone to circular logic. So yeah, I don't have any real reason to cling unto my perspective.

On 27/10/2020 at 2:25 PM, Nahm said:

Feeling is the present, feeling is not in a future. This whacko of a guy has said this a hundred thousand times but I think I might actually entertain this now because I’m getting that this is how I’m creating my own suffering, and life can be in nirvana if I stick with my source of good feeling

My objection to the deconstruction of the concept of time is not a matter of "not believing you" or anything of the kind. I just don't feel like "time" is the problem. It's like a boulder fall onto my car overnight, and this is not covered by insurance. I'm mad! And you are like "car is a thought". Sure car is a thought but the problem is the entitlement to it, not the concept of "car". But maybe I'm wrong, maybe "time" is to be deconstructed. I don't see it though.

And no I don't consider you "a whacko". There's no way I can express the amount of respect I have for you. You understand everything, you are always helpful. I am extremely grateful for all the help you gave me, thank you.

 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

The perspective I struggle to let go is of having "wasted my day" after procrastinating for 10-12 hours. I struggle to let it go because I do believe that is true, in the context of achieving something, doing something unrelated for that long is not helping. I also struggle to let it go because when that happen I don't want to "let it slide". I don't want to become complacent and tolerate that. But of course that is just fear, forcing myself to feel bad about something, counter intuitively, doesn't lead me to do less of that thing. Instead I just escape as a way to try and avoid this feeling.

This is you ‘doing the work’, this is it. Feel good about it. I don’t mean think good - I mean feel good about it, and recognize good feeling.

There is no such thing as a true perspective. Perspectives are experienced like shoes. They already come & go, and in recognizing that we can just change em willy nilly. Imagine saying “but these are the true pair of shoes!”. Sounds silly, so laugh about it. Consider maybe...why would you ever believe & focus on something that does not resonate? Perspective is no exception. 

Letting a perspective go is never “letting it slide”. Via the label “procrastination”, and “not letting it slide”, you are already essentially rendering yourself complacent, and you have already been tolerating that (but most noteworthy, not liking how it feels). “Complacent” is not a thought of you, it’s a feeling. When you think “I...am...complacent” you are thinking yourself which doesn’t ‘click’ because you are yourself, judging a “yourself” (as complacent). 

Not avoiding feeling...or rather just....feeling...feels wonderful, similar to how not avoiding a ton of help, feels helpful. 

When you find yourself doing one thing, and notice you want to do a different thing - but don’t seem to be - go intuitive, and acknowledge you are doing what you want to be doing. Acknowledging this is empowering yourself. Empowerment is a feeling, not a thought. You’ll soon be doing the other thing you’re wanting to be doing...since you feel like someone who is doing what they want to be doing. 

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

I do struggle with this "bypassing". I struggle to reject a perspective that hasn't been proved wrong, just because it makes me feel bad. This idea creates the image of a delusional person denying a fact that is difficult for them to accept. But of course such a person would feel their own delusion, so the concern is bogus. Furthermore, this idea that a perspective have to be proved wrong is very prone to circular logic. So yeah, I don't have any real reason to cling unto my perspective.

RIght on. Choose how you feel over being right, and or any “true” or “truth”. 

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

My objection to the deconstruction of the concept of time is not a matter of "not believing you" or anything of the kind. I just don't feel like "time" is the problem. It's like a boulder fall onto my car overnight, and this is not covered by insurance. I'm mad! And you are like "car is a thought". Sure car is a thought but the problem is the entitlement to it, not the concept of "car". But maybe I'm wrong, maybe "time" is to be deconstructed. I don't see it though.

You can think time, but you can never see it, hear it, touch it, taste it, or feel it. There really isn’t even the need to deconstruct a concept. Just noticing it is a concept is ample. Also, maybe owning it, as in, noticing it’s your concept. 

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

And no I don't consider you "a whacko". There's no way I can express the amount of respect I have for you. You understand everything, you are always helpful. I am extremely grateful for all the help you gave me, thank you.

I’m equally grateful & have the utmost respect for you as well, and I believe the more letting go you do, the less you’ll know & the better you’ll feel, and it’ll be more clearly seen I don’t know anything, sans to pick how I feel over what I think. 

[4201]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

This is you ‘doing the work’, this is it. Feel good about it. I don’t mean think good - I mean feel good about it, and recognize good feeling.

There is no such thing as a true perspective. Perspectives are experienced like shoes. They already come & go, and in recognizing that we can just change em willy nilly. Imagine saying “but these are the true pair of shoes!”. Sounds silly, so laugh about it. Consider maybe...why would you ever believe & focus on something that does not resonate? Perspective is no exception. 

Letting a perspective go is never “letting it slide”. Via the label “procrastination”, and “not letting it slide”, you are already essentially rendering yourself complacent, and you have already been tolerating that (but most noteworthy, not liking how it feels). “Complacent” is not a thought of you, it’s a feeling. When you think “I...am...complacent” you are thinking yourself which doesn’t ‘click’ because you are yourself, judging a “yourself” (as complacent). 

Not avoiding feeling...or rather just....feeling...feels wonderful, similar to how not avoiding a ton of help, feels helpful. 

When you find yourself doing one thing, and notice you want to do a different thing - but don’t seem to be - go intuitive, and acknowledge you are doing what you want to be doing. Acknowledging this is empowering yourself. Empowerment is a feeling, not a thought. You’ll soon be doing the other thing you’re wanting to be doing...since you feel like someone who is doing what they want to be doing. 

Are you saying that when I procrastinate, I'm doing what the self wants? Basically I'm identifying as a self who wants that. So when I'm doing the "wrong" thing (or anything) I can question myself why I want to do this rather than state how much I don't want to do this. This points directly to the perspective, which is the reason of my doing.

I feel like I'm just scratching the surface with perspective. I saw with meditation how much those perspectives slide under the carpet. A thought will come up, I tend to notice the thought itself but not the self-jugement I have for having my thought. For instance I will use the occurrence of a thought as a reason to reinforce the perspective that I don't have any focus or I'm really not woke lately.

It is very tricky to see those perspectives, I really buy into them easily. (But that's just a perspective). I know I can take a psychedelic anytime and free myself from all perspectives, but this tends to be temporary for me. (Also a perspective)

Sometimes I feel bad, so I know I'm fooling myself (buying into a perspective) so I sit down and meditate for 30 min and not find it. Not get anything out of it. At those times I feel very desperate. I'm out of options. 

But yes, this idea of accepting that if I do X, it's because self wants to do X and then asking, "why do I want to do X?" seems like a better alternative than bruteforce meditation. With "mindless" meditation I just reinforce the perspective of "me not getting it". So thanks for this insight.

Those perspectives are everywhere though. Waiting for me to buy into them at every corner. I feel like I'll get caught up again into another perspective. But that's just a perspective.

[Nahm]

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Are you saying that when I procrastinate, I'm doing what the self wants?

No, just in the conventional ‘regular’ sense, acknowledging whatever you are doing, you are doing, because you want to be doing it. If there is something else you want to do, recognizing that you are doing what you want, can be most helpful. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Basically I'm identifying as a self who wants that.

Wanting is feeling. Identifying is via beliefs about who one is. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

So when I'm doing the "wrong" thing (or anything) I can question myself why I want to do this rather than state how much I don't want to do this. This points directly to the perspective, which is the reason of my doing.

Yes. You would be aligning feeling and perspective. There is no need to focus on what you don’t want. Once you know what you don’t want, flip to what you do want. Pause in between. Relax, take big stomach breaths. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

I feel like I'm just scratching the surface with perspective. I saw with meditation how much those perspectives slide under the carpet. A thought will come up, I tend to notice the thought itself but not the self-jugement I have for having my thought. For instance I will use the occurrence of a thought as a reason to reinforce the perspective that I don't have any focus or I'm really not woke lately.

Excellent. Awareness that those are just thoughts is ample. You can see that they aren’t actually about you, because you are the awareness of, the thoughts. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

It is very tricky to see those perspectives, I really buy into them easily. (But that's just a perspective). I know I can take a psychedelic anytime and free myself from all perspectives, but this tends to be temporary for me. (Also a perspective)

It’s temporary with psychedelics too. So rely on feeling, which is not temporary. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Sometimes I feel bad, so I know I'm fooling myself (buying into a perspective) so I sit down and meditate for 30 min and not find it. Not get anything out of it. At those times I feel very desperate. I'm out of options. 

Listening to feeling in the first place, rather than claiming & labelling it, is an option. This option is miraculously made new again and again and again and again. Always there for you. No need to focus on how it may have went in a past. No need to identify with that thought. 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

But yes, this idea of accepting that if I do X, it's because self wants to do X and then asking, "why do I want to do X?" seems like a better alternative than bruteforce meditation. With "mindless" meditation I just reinforce the perspective of "me not getting it". So thanks for this insight.

There is no need for “a self”, and there is no need for Bruce forcing anything. The feeling was present and guiding before the meditation was even mentioned (and probably thought about). 

13 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Those perspectives are everywhere though. Waiting for me to buy into them at every corner. I feel like I'll get caught up again into another perspective. But that's just a perspective.

Totally seems like it. I feel ya. But there is only one at a time. The total “work order” is actually one perspective at a time. The more you align perspectives with feeling like you mentioned, the more feeling it seems there is, and the more there is only one thought / perspective at a time, is clearer. 

[4201]

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

No, just in the conventional ‘regular’ sense, acknowledging whatever you are doing, you are doing, because you want to be doing it.

Doesn't that imply a "me" that wants to be doing it? I don't see the difference. Isn't it something wanted by the self I created?

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

There is no need to focus on what you don’t want. Once you know what you don’t want, flip to what you do want. Pause in between. Relax, take big stomach breaths. 

Yes I agree, if it's escapism it's escapism there's no need to figure out why I chose a specific activity as my escape. But perhaps there is value to figure out why I was escaping? Don't I need to catch the perspective that lead me to escape in the first place? Let's say I start escaping out of shame for having failed something, then I want to see that perspective and stop holding it as true. Won't it come back if I don't notice and eliminate it?

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Listening to feeling in the first place, rather than claiming & labelling it, is an option. This option is miraculously made new again and again and again and again. Always there for you. No need to focus on how it may have went in a past. No need to identify with that thought. 

Not only made new but it always feels "out of the box" and not obvious. But yes the box is the perspective I'm creating.

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

There is no need for “a self”

Yes, but isn't there an implicit self hidden in the fallacies that leads one to follow thoughts rather than feeling? At least there is an implicit self in the idea that "I'm unable to do what I want". But that is just a perspective. Would any perspective be problematic if they didn't include a self?

Edited October 29, 2020 by 4201

[The0Self]

@4201

I feel like “you” are like a kind of mirror for this me-body over here. This just felt compelled to write that. Weird. I wouldn’t read into it.

Edit: well any me would definitely read into it.

Edited October 29, 2020 by The0Self

[Nahm]

@4201

 Focus on what you want. 

@zeroISinfinity

 Focus on what you want.

[The0Self]

The more conscious you are, the further you are from liberation. But that’s not strictly true (nor is anything strictly true, even though simultaneously and meaninglessly, everything is strictly true) there is no liberation because there’s really no you. You already know this and it won’t help. You seem to be “experiencing” the real thing, so I offer you what “you” need most: nothing whatsoever.

[4201]

On 29/10/2020 at 9:08 AM, Nahm said:

@4201

 Focus on what you want. 

With all due respect, I find that trying to focus on what I want while simultaneously holding a belief of incapacity doesn't work. I find myself "fishing" for this belief whenever I feel bad and it still feels like quite a battle. In the end the belief is often found, leading to a day or 2 of high productivity and happiness, (basically always) followed by a crash as I adopt a new limiting belief. The belief is alway "new" but I don't doubt that I will never run out of beliefs like this.

How do you get yourself to stop feeling bad when you don't see the bad perspective that makes the bad feeling? What if "what you want" when feeling bad is to escape? It may be silly but it was done, so it was wanted wasn't it?