Daniel Ingram: Psychedelics, Meditation and enlightenment

[RedLine]

On 31/10/2020 at 4:19 PM, Enlightenment said:

IDK what you mean by 'regular nirvana' 

Location 4 at the end of the article http://www.nonsymbolic.org/PNSE-Article.pdf describes my experience with a caveat that 'no emotions' doesn't actually mean not having emotions but experiencing them fundamentally different, not like a classic human emotional experience

And yes I'm 100% sure about it 

There are two "degrees of enlightenment". The first stage is experienced as non-ego (Wilber´s casual) and the second as non-self (Wilber´s non-dual). I am not completely sure if Location 4 equals to casual stage or non-dual stage.

 

You can check a brief description of the difference between the two stages in Brief history of everything - Ken Wilber Chapter 13. Here a extract (this is a translation from Spanish, I don´t have the book in english):

Quote

 Causal:

Q: You have said that these archetypal or subtle Forms
they emerge directly from Emptiness, from the causal, which is the next stage, the fulcrum 9.

KW: When you meditate trying to discover the observing Self, when you search for the Witness and reach its very origin in pure Emptiness, no object appears in consciousness. It is a discreet and identifiable state of consciousness, absorption, or cessation without known manifestation also with the names of nirvikalpa samadhi, jnana samadhi, ayin, vergezzen, nirodh or classic nirvana.

This is the causal state, a discrete state that is often equated to the state of deep dreamless sleep, a state, however, that is not mere emptiness but is, on the contrary, experienced as the most complete fullness, an oozing state. of Being, a fullness that no manifestation can contain. This pure I that can never be seen as an object is pure Emptiness.

 

The non-dual:

That same Emptiness, as consciousness, was present
from the beginning in the depth of every holon, a depth that gradually shed all its garments until it ends up losing all form, until its depth probes infinity, until its time enters eternity, until its space interior becomes the totality of space and its individuality becomes the same Divinity, the substrate, the path and the joy of Emptiness.

Q: And the unmanifest causal is the absolute end point? It is
the end of time, the end of evolution, the end of history, the final omega point?

KW: Good. Many traditions consider this state of
cessation is the ultimate state, the end point of all development and evolution, a state that is equated with full enlightenment, with ultimate liberation, with pure nirvana. But for non-dual traditions this is not the end point. The Witness, the feeling of being a Witness "here" ends up fading and the Witness turns out to be identical to everything witnessed. The causal ends up giving way to the non-dual and formless mysticism becomes non-dual mysticism. "Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form."

 

The Christian mystic Bernadette Roberts expalins very well these two different stages: https://francis.ugjka.net/eng/269 - A question on no-Self%2C Bernadette Roberts%2C Advaita%2C Buddhism - Francis Answers - 138.html

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Display_Name said:

Frank Yang has.

I mean after his "new mode".

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by RedLine

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, RedLine said:

There are two "degrees of enlightenment". The first stage is experienced as non-ego (Wilber´s casual) and the second as non-self (Wilber´s non-dual). I am not completely sure if Location 4 equals to casual stage or non-dual stage.

You can check a brief description of the difference between the two stages in Brief history of everything - Ken Wilber Chapter 13. Here a extract (this is a translation from Spanish, I don´t have the book in english):

There is a deeper awakening.

[Rigel]

On 2020-10-31 at 6:43 PM, Leo Gura said:

I swear, Buddhists are some of the dumbest people out there, precisely because they think they got it all figured out.

Do you?

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Rigel said:

Do you?

No, but I got it better figured out than Buddhists.

[lmfao]

Ingram probably won't change his mind on anything metaphysical much (like most people, including me). I've read some of his book, he's invested a lot of energy into buddhist models and dogmas that I highly doubt he'll explore beyond that. You can tell what someone's temperament and disposition is. Some of these buddhist types can be a bit rigid and closed. Or perhaps I'm being rigid and closed by judging him and guessing. 

But hey, he's still many times more advanced than me. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

His book is excellent. I'll give him that.

[Fadl]

Look guys, if you do psychedelics 1 time you will reach tier 1, if you do it twice then you will reach tier 2, so DO it 7575875858585 times to reach tier 7575875858585. 

I think that is obvious but you didn’t get it yet. 

[Enlightenment]

20 hours ago, RedLine said:

There are two "degrees of enlightenment". The first stage is experienced as non-ego (Wilber´s casual) and the second as non-self (Wilber´s non-dual). I am not completely sure if Location 4 equals to casual stage or non-dual stage.

To me what you're talking about are states of meditation which Wilber describes here 

turyia is also known as The Witness

From The Mind Illuminated:

Quote

As you keep observing, you may also discover the so-called Witness, the subjective experience of a pure, unmoving, and unmoved observer who is unaffected by whatever is observed.7 A warning is in order here. You will likely feel that you have discovered the true Self, the ultimate ground of all experience. In a sense you have—but it’s not at all what you think! The Witness state is the ultimate ground of your personal experience, but it has arisen in dependence upon the body and the world, and it will disappear with the body. Its real value and significance is that it points toward a much more profound Insight, provided you don’t make the mistake of clinging to it as a Self. Doing so only nourishes the attachment we are all born with to the idea of being a singular, enduring, and separate Self. Mistaking the Witness state for a true Self is what leads some people to claim that Consciousness is the True Self.8

Kenneth Folk here talks about the Witness and later also about this next stage turiatita

Here Ken Wilber is probably entering the same states in meditation

Those are powerful meditative states but it's not like Location 4/enlightemnent which you are all the time once you shift and it's independent of whether you meditate or not

 

13 hours ago, lmfao said:

Ingram probably won't change his mind on anything metaphysical much (like most people, including me). I've read some of his book, he's invested a lot of energy into buddhist models and dogmas that I highly doubt he'll explore beyond that. You can tell what someone's temperament and disposition is. Some of these buddhist types can be a bit rigid and closed. Or perhaps I'm being rigid and closed by judging him and guessing. 

He is very attached to these Buddhist maps, he tries to match every experience to where it's on the map

[RedLine]

@Enlightenment No, they are stages (they can be experrriced as states too). Read Wilber's Diaries, there he describes how is his phenomenology being in permanent casual and non-dual stages.

 

He uses hundreds of maps from different tradicions to elaborate that map, not only theravada.

Edited November 2, 2020 by RedLine

[Matt23]

 

On 10/28/2020 at 1:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

Try the 30 day 5-MeO-DMT test. I dare ya

Hmmmm.... no. haha.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

A bunch of empty talk.

Alright there "Guna". 

 

On 10/28/2020 at 2:23 AM, Lyubov said:

He is def talking about Leo

O Fo sho.  

I like how he characterizes Leo's 30 day Meo retreat:  "A cautionary tale."  haha. yaaaaa..   I mean, I don't think he meant that how I just portrayed it, but still, haha, I think a 30-day Meo retreat is worth a word of caution.

[Leo Gura]

I have a cautionary tale for ya: All those Buddhists who spent 30 years+ meditating and who call themselves enlightened, but do not understand what God or Love is.

[Fadl]

Guys! Don’t listen to these monks, what a stupid thing to do … listen to the drug addicts who think they know the absolute truth.

If you didn’t understand me take some drugs and you will do.

 

[Ry4n]

On 11/3/2020 at 1:22 PM, Leo Gura said:

I have a cautionary tale for ya: All those Buddhists who spent 30 years+ meditating and who call themselves enlightened, but do not understand what God or Love is.

What schools do you think had it best figured out? Advaita?

[Leo Gura]

59 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

What schools do you think had it best figured out? Advaita?

The 5-MeO school

Seriously, you do not understand what awakening is until you do 5-MeO-DMT. I don't care how enlightened a teacher says he is. That's all bullshit after 5-MeO, and don't let anyone try to gaslight you otherwise.

Someone like Rupert Spira or Daniel Ingram, for example, still is not fully awake. And he never will be without 5-MeO-DMT. You can cry and complain about it all you like, but I'm telling you how it is. Virtually no enlightened teacher is fully awake, or even close to awake.

[electroBeam]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Virtually no enlightened teacher is fully awake, or even close to awake.

Matt Kahn might not be awake to your standards, but he's got a lot of shit figured out.

Psychedelics aren't a magic pill though. There are trillions out there who take psychedelics (probably 5 meo too) who dont know anything about Love or God. I know plenty of psychedelic enthusiasts who actually think that being one with the universe is a completely different place to sober. Like sober and that oneness are separate. And those are the most awake ones, the majority think that dmt machine elves run the universe.

Buddhists might not know as much shit as you, but IMO buddhists are more spot on then alien and dmt machine elf enthusiasts, at least they cut through the ego story crap. That 'ego cutting' is really missing in psychedelic communities. They have loads of amazing experiences, yet are too immature to cut through the bullshit and see what the universe actually is.

So if you want to make an accurate comparison between the 5-meo school(psychedelic community) and the buddhists, you need to more fairly weight the pros and cons of each. You aint awake if you've taken a trillion psychedelics either. Infact you're way less awake then a buddhist IME. If you can't see that there's no difference between oneness sober and oneness in a psychedelic, then you're way behind a buddhist and zen monks.

Really, you can't say the 5 meo school is better then the Buddhists. The answer is both, and if it can't be both, then IMO the Buddhists are more effective.

Edited November 5, 2020 by electroBeam

[Ry4n]

@Leo Gura

@27:20 this guy comments on how his experience compares to his meditative states, claiming to have gone even deeper (but still acknowledging such abilities wouldn't have been possible without such previous experience). Do you think this guy is just really talented or completely full of shit? Does 5meo allow one to go "back" without said substance? Or should we just continue shoving drugs up our ass for the rest of our lives LOL!

There's something about it that seems unintegrated. 

[Leo Gura]

@Ry4n No human will ever naturally have the degree of consciousness possible via 5-MeO-DMT for me.

But keep in mind, 5-MeO-DMT does not work on all people equally. For me, personally, it produces a level of consciousness that no human naturally has access to, I don't care how much they've meditated.

Also, keep in mind, that to really get the full effect that I'm talking about requires some 100+ trips and serious contemplation. Some guy doing a couple of trips is just a joke. He isn't seriously working with the substance.

And I have found even more powerful things than 5-MeO-DMT.

[Frosty97]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And I have found even more powerful things than 5-MeO-DMT.

When are you planning to tell us about it Leo?

[Free Mind]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Ry4n No human will ever naturally have the degree of consciousness possible via 5-MeO-DMT for me.

But keep in mind, 5-MeO-DMT does not work on all people equally. For me, personally, it produces a level of consciousness that no human naturally has access to, I don't care how much they've meditated.

Also, keep in mind, that to really get the full effect that I'm talking about requires some 100+ trips and serious contemplation. Some guy doing a couple of trips is just a joke. He isn't seriously working with the substance.

And I have found even more powerful things than 5-MeO-DMT.

How would you describe the difference between the first time you broke through on 25+ mgs of 5meo vs now on the same dose? 

[Ry4n]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No human will ever naturally have the degree of consciousness possible via 5-MeO-DMT for me.

That I can accept but what I can't is simply going back to your regular state and not being able to attain/embody a nondual state on the natch at all that a lot of teachers have; even if it's not on a 5-meo level. 

I guess what I'm talking about here is more just human development as a whole, that to rely on peak experiences for understanding in the long term doesn't seam feasible, and that there is something of genuine value to experiencing the absolute in this moment. I am correct in saying enlightenment itself isn't an experience but the source of all experience? Maybe this is the point in time where the meditative and psychonaut path start to diverge.