Why shouldn't I kill someone, steal something, etc.

[Claymoree]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

What if it's a life or death situation? Will stealing (let's ignore killing for now) be justified then? For example, if a poor man is hungry and can't afford food. Is it okay for him to steal from a rich supermarket?

I think you can make more interesting questions , or arguments out of it, for example he  might have just asked for food, but he did not, is he wrong now.  

[Gesundheit]

30 minutes ago, Roy said:

@Nthnl Well, ignoring all the endless circular intellectual/conceptual talk about if it's "right" or "wrong" for a second -

If you were to murder someone, what do you think you would feel? How do imagine it would make you feel? Probably shitty right? Do you imagine you would you hesitate before or during the act? Scared you would get caught? Fear that it would damage your mental health? Resentment, guilt? That tight feeling your throat?

All of these deeper feelings (aka Truth) are signs and signals from and to the universe (you) is/are possibly moving towards something not that you "should" or "shouldn't" be doing, but a potential filled with suffering. Not just for yourself but others as well.

You're being biased here. A lot of pick-up guys feel shitty at their first approaches, and they may even feel the same after hundreds of approaches. But you wouldn't consider that a sign to stop and instead you'd encourage them to drop that fat ego and bite the bullet anyways.

[Osaid]

5 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

What if it's a life or death situation? Will stealing (let's ignore killing for now) be justified then? For example, if a poor man is hungry and can't afford food. Is it okay for him to steal from a rich supermarket?

It's definitely not black and white. A common problem, which can be seen in religions, is they see it says something like "don't drink alcohol" and then turn it into an absolute rule which cannot ever be broken.

For the sake of argument, I'm assuming the killing and stealing is being done for very obvious and highly selfish reasons.

[Roy]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit said:

You're being biased here. A lot of pick-up guys feel shitty at their first approaches, and they may even feel the same after hundreds of approaches. But you wouldn't consider that a sign to stop and instead you'd encourage them to drop that fat ego and bite the bullet anyways.

No friend, you are aren't going deep enough with your understanding. You see what really feels good and what's guiding those guys in the first place whether they take action or not is the potential for being successful and having good experiences (love) with those women.

But there is the surface level of "feeling" (aka rationalizations, excuses, negative self-talk) that makes it feel shitty, because those things are just survival mechanisms that keep the ego in tact and safe.

In this case the ego that thinks; it's not good with women, it's not me it's them, I can't feel pain of rejection if I never try, etc.

Don't get stuck at the surface levels. You need to work at this. You don't get your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Claymoree said:

I think you can make more interesting questions , or arguments out of it, for example he  might have just asked for food, but he did not, is he wrong now.  

You didn't answer the question or even add anything. And actually I find what you said rather boring and missing the point.

2 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It's definitely not black and white. A common problem, which can be seen in religions, is they see it says something like "don't drink alcohol" and then turn it into an absolute rule which cannot ever be broken.

So, in this "not black or white" system of yours, how do you make judgements? You just ignored the question and appealed to higher nuance as if higher nuance makes anything more legitimate.

4 minutes ago, Osaid said:

For the sake of argument, I'm assuming the killing and stealing is being done for very obvious and highly selfish reasons.

Even then, it still does not make you less selfish to judge that behavior. The truth is that you'd be as selfish as a murderer without even knowing.

[Claymoree]

How about this

He knew he can ask for food instead of stealing, but he did not because he felt uncomfortable.

He knew he can ask for food instead of stealing, but he did not because he hates rich people.

It did not even cross his mind that he had other option.

And we can continue list.  

@Gesundheit I was not planning to answer your question, as I was not saying that you are wrong or anything like that , just made different layers of how you can look at the problem and if it changes anything, should it change anything. 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Claymoree

[Gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, Roy said:

No friend, you are aren't going deep enough with your understanding. You see what really feels good and what's guiding those guys in the first place whether they take action or not is the potential for being successful and having good experiences (love) with those women.

But there is the surface level of "feeling" (aka rationalizations, excuses, negative self-talk) that makes it feel shitty, because those things are just survival mechanisms that keep the ego in tact and safe.

In this case the ego that thinks; it's not good with women, it's not me it's them, I can't feel pain of rejection if I never try, etc.

Don't get stuck at the surface levels. You need to work at this. You don't get your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Who's making rationalizations now?!

[Gesundheit]

11 minutes ago, Claymoree said:

How about this

He knew he can ask for food instead of stealing, but he did not because he felt uncomfortable.

He knew he can ask for food instead of stealing, but he did not because he hates rich people.

It did not even cross his mind that he had other option.

And we can continue list.

Why not instead be more direct and question the concept of ownership and authority? Why do some people get to get more power and resources than others in the first place? And why is that justified and normalized?

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Carl-Richard]

Survival.

[Osaid]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

You just ignored the question

You asked me if it's justified or if it's okay and I'm trying to explain that "justice" and what is "okay" is very nuanced and relative here. One person could look at the situation and say it is justified and another could say it isn't, because it is relative.

There isn't something out there in the universe that confirms if something is "okay" to do, that's entirely made up by you.

14 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Even then, it still does not make you less selfish to judge that behavior. The truth is that you'd be as selfish as a murderer without even knowing.

I'm not trying to judge anyone. I'm saying that perpetuation of your ego will lead to suffering, that's it. I'm not saying if anyone is "bad" or "good".

[Claymoree]

29 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Why not instead be more direct and question the concept of ownership and authority? Why do some people get to get more power and resources than others in the first place? And why is that justified and normalized?

I understand your concerns and there is lots to improve, but your demands are unrealistic, I can hardly imagine it working, let alone humans actually being able to make it work. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Claymoree

[Reciprocality]

It may not be that you ought not kill another, but.. and here i am lost.

I can not reason my way to this conclusion as you see, that would actually be by its own standard unreasonable, as the condition for such action is itself the apeal to ethics.

Yet STILL i do what i oughtn't do, now where does that put me? unreasonable, and that i am, yet i can reason that i weren't. 

Well so it goes these rabbit holes, and believe you me those aren't known for being kind to those jumping in. 

You ask why not kill another, yet you know the BEING of not killing another, and for all the flaws and shortages of reason you may indeed see BEING as a proper constittution; its own means ultimately begging no further question. Or you wont, a life of such avoidance, a philosophical ineptitude may indeed be a blessing.

To the first self contention above: one can find reason to kill, its just that the premise follows the conclusion. Well if this is true than one could argue ALL rational thought are structured irrationaly, and neccesarily never followed by its own rules. But than you have a meta rule which if followed supposedly remedies the prior 'inadequacies' which indeed just beggs the next question and the next, and so it will go on. 

Kill everyone and everyone only whose precence give you SENSATIONS of extreme hatred, beneath and beyond all deducements and higher faculties of the insanity that is the mind. Maybe here inlies the answer, asuming you're not of the irascible type. edit: Which in turn avoids the premise before it, the evasion of those 'higher faculties'.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Reciprocality

[Roy]

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Who's making rationalizations now?!

Nobody. It's a matter of looking deeper, no thoughts required

Edited October 26, 2020 by Roy

[Gesundheit]

5 hours ago, Claymoree said:

I understand your concerns and there is lots to improve, but your demands are unrealistic, I can hardly imagine it working, let alone humans actually being able to make it work. 

That's not the point. The point is, as long as there's no equality, nobody has the right to tell a criminal to not be a criminal. Cuz it would only serve the rich and the people in power, and therefore help strengthening the status quo. Being rich is a crime too because of power abuse and lack of responsibility.

And that does not concern me at all. I'm just visioning into the future of mankind. It's inevitable.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Gesundheit]

@Roy You say it's a matter of looking deeper, but what you said not only sounds basic and superficial to me, but honestly, wrong.

Let's take a look. You said:

6 hours ago, Roy said:

@Nthnl 

If you were to murder someone, what do you think you would feel? How do imagine it would make you feel? Probably shitty right? Do you imagine you would you hesitate before or during the act? Scared you would get caught? Fear that it would damage your mental health? Resentment, guilt? That tight feeling your throat?

All of these deeper feelings (aka Truth) are signs and signals from and to the universe (you) is/are possibly moving towards something not that you "should" or "shouldn't" be doing, but a potential filled with suffering. Not just for yourself but others as well.

Notice the underlined and in bold. All of what you said is just a thought experiment. And it contradicts direct experience. Wanna dig deeper? Okay, buckle up. Cuz you're about to read some of the most mind shattering truths.

The reason why you would feel bad, shitty, scared, or whatever when you think about crime is because you are indoctrinated with anti-crime ideology since birth. Imagine being born a few thousand years ago in a tribal environment. All of what you said here would make 0 sense to you, because your identity (ego) would be radically different. But you needn't look that far. How about Veganism vs meat? You'd think that it's more humane to be vegan, and that eating meat is cruel. You think people who eat meat feel bad for their diet? Is this deep enough for you or should I go further?

[Gesundheit]

5 hours ago, Osaid said:

You asked me if it's justified or if it's okay and I'm trying to explain that "justice" and what is "okay" is very nuanced and relative here. One person could look at the situation and say it is justified and another could say it isn't, because it is relative.

There isn't something out there in the universe that confirms if something is "okay" to do, that's entirely made up by you.

That's obvious. Relativity is kindergarten. What I'm saying goes deeper than just relativity.

5 hours ago, Osaid said:

I'm not trying to judge anyone. I'm saying that perpetuation of your ego will lead to suffering, that's it. I'm not saying if anyone is "bad" or "good".

You said that crime makes the criminal suffer, but that's not the case at all. Anything can create suffering if you resist it. Think about it, rape is just sex being resisted.

[Osaid]

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

You said that crime makes the criminal suffer,

I never specifically said crime, I said being selfish makes you suffer, not just crime

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Anything can create suffering if you resist it. Think about it, rape is just sex being resisted.

Yes. Resistance is survival, which is the ego's doing.

[Gesundheit]

31 minutes ago, Osaid said:

I never specifically said crime, I said being selfish makes you suffer, not just crime

Yeah sorry for that slight change.

31 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Yes. Resistance is survival, which is the ego's doing.

Well technically, it isn't necessarily. But that's close enough and we basically agree.

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

And that's exactly the problem. The ego is grounded in the fear of not-knowing, and the whole trick is to create an illusion of knowing

There is no ego. Keep that in mind. 

[Gesundheit]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

There is no ego. Keep that in mind. 

Sure, except when there is.