Rant: You need friends

[Akemrelax]

1 hour ago, Thestarguitarist14 said:

There is nothing that anyone can give you thar has value.  Leo said this himself in the “how to stop caring about what other people think” episode.  One of my favorites of his.  People who have mindsets like this should revisit that episode.

Leo has sex with people. That's someone giving him value. And you have no idea about stage green relationships. Relationships can have tremendous value. If you don't need friends that's great, no one care's dude. You might as well give up all worldly desires. What you're saying is so one dimensional, it lacks nuance even if it's true. I am pointing out traps here, there is no need to feel personally attacked. 

Why are you even arguing with me? Take your own advice, I can't give you anything of value. You clearly haven't transcended the need to start arguments on the forum.

Alright, Imma stop now. I said everything I had to, can't argue with Thestarguitarist14 stuck one point.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Thestarguitarist14]

5 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

Leo has sex with people. That's someone giving him value. And you have no idea about stage green relationships. Relationships can have tremendous value. If you don't need friends that's great, no one care's dude. You might as well give up all worldly desires. What you're saying is so one dimensional, it lacks nuance even if it's true. I am pointing out traps here, there is no need to feel personally attacked. 

Why are you even arguing with me? Take your own advice, I can't give you anything of value. You clearly haven't transcended the need to start arguments on the forum.

Alright, Imma stop now. I said everything I had to, can't argue with Thestarguitarist14 stuck one point.

 

Sex is great.  But you can have sex with anyone.  Including yourself.  Having sex with someone is not that valuable when you actually contemplate it.  Well, having a kid is valuable.  But that’s it.

Notice his reaction here folks.  He is clearly immersed in other people’s energy that he cannot understand his own energy field.  At this point, all he is doing is projecting.  He preaches stage green, but he’s really stuck in stage orange as he wants to get things out of others.  Notice how he has not mentioned what he gives his friends.  Because he has nothing to give.  Just smoke and mirrors.

This is the real danger of self deception.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Thestarguitarist14

[7thLetter]

@ivory

I also want to add something about Stage Yellow. A lot of people have this idea that Yellow can be a lone wolf, and based on other sources its just often said that it IS a lone wolf. Leo didn't create the Spiral Dynamics model, and he's not the only source to understand what Spiral Dynamics is.

https://www.integratedsociopsychology.net/theory/vmemes/self-actualisationyellow/

Under Self-Actualized into YELLOW thinking, the above link says: "4. The self-actualizing person enjoys solitude and privacy. They can also seem detached. It is possible for them to remain unruffled and undisturbed by what upsets others. (YELLOW will walk away from ‘lost causes’, how ever noble they might be.) They may even appear to be asocial. This characteristic is related to a sense of security and self-sufficiency."

My opinion on this is that Stage Yellow is just so complex-minded that surface-level thinkers just don't stimulate them through conversation, that Yellow could care less about engaging in an intellectual conversation with them. And how it says "Yellow will walk away from lost causes," I'm sure this means that Yellow understands these lost causes' level of psychological development so well that there's no hope for them to even do better, or that they understand it would take them a long time to even get to a certain level so they don't even bother. Do you try to explain algebra to a toddler and hope that finally they get it? Or do you understand that it takes ages for them to grow up, mature, to even understand what you're talking about? Right.

Stage Yellow is rare, it is said that 1% of the population is at this stage, so wouldn't you agree that people at this stage wouldn't necessarily associate themselves with others? Not in an arrogant way, but being realistic. Just understand the fact that people tend to associate themselves with others who are closely similar to them in certain ways. Generally speaking, rich people don't associate themselves with homeless people, healthy fit people don't associate themselves with fat lazy people, you get the point. If anything, I would imagine Yellow to have other like-minded friends, so maybe they would have close friends who are also Yellow, or above. Not to say that they won't entertain friendships with those lower on the spiral, but since this stage is so rare, there's not a lot of like-minded individuals that they likely tend to lean towards being a lone wolf. Maybe this will change in the future as Yellow starts to become more common.

https://projectsovereign.org/stage-yellow-spiral-dynamics/

This link above states: "Yellow is a Lone-Wolf." Under the Characteristics of Stage Yellow.

 

Thoughts on the image below? This idea of awakening, and socially withdrawing from others is said quite often, so there must be some truth to this.

Edited November 4, 2020 by 7thLetter

[ivory]

@7thLetter I actually agree with most of your points. 

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

The self-actualizing person enjoys solitude and privacy

Let's not confuse the difference between solitude and isolation. Solitude is healthy whereas isolation is not. That's one of the points that I'm trying to emphasize in this thread.

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

https://www.integratedsociopsychology.net/theory/vmemes/self-actualisationyellow/

This link also goes on to say: 

Though dependent on others for the satisfaction of such basic needs as love, belongingness, safety and respect, they get their principal satisfactions from their own development and continued growth. The motif, in the life conditions GREEN has brought about, is to make the best for yourself – this vMEME is very much on the self-expressive side of the Spiral!

Self-actualising people tend to have deep interpersonal relations with others. They are selective, however, and their circle of friends may be small, usually consisting of others capable of 2nd Tier thinking. In spite of their tendency to privacy, they often attract others to them as admirers or disciples.

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

My opinion on this is that Stage Yellow is just so complex-minded that surface-level thinkers just don't stimulate them through conversation, that Yellow could care less about engaging in an intellectual conversation with them. And how it says "Yellow will walk away from lost causes," I'm sure this means that Yellow understands these lost causes' level of psychological development so well that there's no hope for them to even do better, or that they understand it would take them a long time to even get to a certain level so they don't even bother. Do you try to explain algebra to a toddler and hope that finally they get it? Or do you understand that it takes ages for them to grow up, mature, to even understand what you're talking about? Right.

I definitely agree that a yellow would walk away with lost causes. Your algebra analogy is rather appropriate. I also agree that many people won't be intellectually stimulating, but I don't think that would be true for all. Yellow has integrated the healthy manifestations at orange and green (for example) so interactions with people at that level won't necessarily be 100% boring.

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

Stage Yellow is rare, it is said that 1% of the population is at this stage, so wouldn't you agree that people at this stage wouldn't necessarily associate themselves with others? Not in an arrogant way, but being realistic. Just understand the fact that people tend to associate themselves with others who are closely similar to them in certain ways. Generally speaking, rich people don't associate themselves with homeless people, healthy fit people don't associate themselves with fat lazy people, you get the point.

I would agree for sure. I just think it's important to acknowledge that we do have social needs and the lack of tier 2 thinking in society will require a certain level of acceptance for those needs to be met. A yellow person will likely need to accept that his stage green friend is just where he happens to be developmentally. But, he may get bored or agitated from time to time.

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

If anything, I would imagine Yellow to have other like-minded friends, so maybe they would have close friends who are also Yellow, or above. Not to say that they won't entertain friendships with those lower on the spiral, but since this stage is so rare, there's not a lot of like-minded individuals that they likely tend to lean towards being a lone wolf.

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying above.

On 11/4/2020 at 3:41 AM, 7thLetter said:

Thoughts on the image below? This idea of awakening, and socially withdrawing from others is said quite often, so there must be some truth to this.

I think there's a lot of truth to it. Think about it this way. Health practices, spiritual and growth practices, creative pursuits, and career development. A lot of that happens independently of others. As one develops, there's a desire for growth in all aspects of life. A desire for wholeness. We can only devote so much time to others in order to focus on the other aspects of our lives. Also consider that society is structured so that we have to work long hours just to support ourselves. In a more sane society we would work less and devote more time to other things. One of those areas might be relationships. Instead we are forced to choose, we have to decide what's more important. Obviously, if people are lame we are going to choose more meaningful activities. Maybe things would be different if a larger percentage of people were teir 2, who knows. Given the current set of conditions I can totally see how solitude would be a characteristic at yellow.

 

 

Again, you and I actually agree on a lot here. We may have differing opinions on whether or not we have "social needs" at all. I'm not sure. I also seem to have the view that yellow would integrate the healthy manifestations of green, and that would include meaningful relationships. i'm not sure where you stand on that. It may also be possible that you don't make a distinction between "isolation" and "solitude" so it's sort of ambiguous to me which one is synonymous with "lone wolf" in your book. This thread was mostly addressing those that isolate. I am actually a huge advocate of solitude.

[7thLetter]

13 hours ago, ivory said:

Again, you and I actually agree on a lot here. We may have differing opinions on whether or not we have "social needs" at all. I'm not sure. I also seem to have the view that yellow would integrate the healthy manifestations of green, and that would include meaningful relationships. i'm not sure where you stand on that. It may also be possible that you don't make a distinction between "isolation" and "solitude" so it's sort of ambiguous to me which one is synonymous with "lone wolf" in your book. This thread was mostly addressing those that isolate. I am actually a huge advocate of solitude.

@ivory So in the integratedsociopsychology link we were just looking at, it says: "Self-Actualisation, as a way of thinking and being – ie: G-T YELLOW – can only take place, according to both Maslow and Graves, when the lower (1st Tier) needs have been met." This idea of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Spiral Dynamics being closely related is actually quite new to me. I just wanted to point this out because its interesting and this lead me into looking more into Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. And in Maslow's Hierarchy of needs it does in fact say "Love and Belonging - Friendship, family, intimacy" is part of our lower tier needs. Just like how we need food, water, shelter, we also need friendship, sense of connection, etc. So in conclusion, I would agree with your perspective on this topic. Although Preety_India, the first to post on this thread put it in the best way, "It's not about transcending the need for friends. It's about transcending neediness."

With the idea of Yellow integrating the healthy manifestations of Green, it makes sense. Although I'm sure its not just Green, Yellow is the "Spiral Wizard." It understands all lower tier stages so I'm sure it includes the healthy manifestations of all, and it is said Yellow can 'choose' to operate from the lower stages. So rather than Green being a part of Yellow, I think its more of a conscious or subconscious choice of the Yellow individual to think and behave in a similar way that Green does. Because at the end of the day, Yellow is its own stage, just like all the other stages are its own stage. These stages are completely separate and different paradigms. Although the different stages may have similar characteristics, to move onto the next stage requires a complete paradigm shift. But you need to keep in mind, to make it even more complex, individuals moving up the spiral are moving up into the next stages gradually. I don't know where this idea of Yellow integrating healthy manifestations of Green comes from, but its most likely more so the case for individuals who are partially still at Green and slowly transitioning into Yellow. I would imagine it to be less likely the case with those who are 100% Yellow.

And I do make a distinction between "isolation" and "solitude." Perhaps those who argue they don't need friends actually mean solitude rather than isolation? Personally, I guess I'm part of those people who say they've "transcended" the need for friends. But even though I make that claim, I mean I crave solitude rather than "I consciously choose to isolate myself because I'm spiritually woke!"

 

[oMarcos]

Everyone needs the sense of belonging, a community, someone to talk, to share things, there's no real need of math behind this human need

Edited November 13, 2020 by oMarcos