Enlightenment - Dark Side

[Moksha]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I do not seek peace, Moksha, I have found something much greater than the empty peace of the Buddha. 

Love-lution baby

All you need is Love  Love is all you are.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Moksha

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Dodo said:

She does not want you to give your life, she wants you to live your life and saw seeds of Love,

I don't care of she or he...I only want to break the trap of the ego because it's a source of unhappiness, a fake and I know what it's under . I'm selfish, you know? I want be free, and I'm going to do what it's necessary for that, even kill myself . Or at least it's the behaviour that I want to be, you never know if you are going to go further the fear until you do

Edited October 25, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[mandyjw]

The mind creates order where there is none, not seeing that the order it tries so hard to create out of its fear of disorder is just more disorder. The fear of disorder looks at awakening and calls it messy, dark and horrible. It is like the trees dropping their leaves in the Fall. It creates a huge mess, but is part of the perfect order beyond all ideas of order. 

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The mind creates order where there is none, not seeing that the order it tries so hard to create out of its fear of disorder is just more disorder. The fear of disorder looks at awakening and calls it messy, dark and horrible. It is like the trees dropping their leaves in the Fall. It creates a huge mess, but is part of the perfect order beyond all ideas of order. 

 

Fall is the most beautiful season

 

 

 

[bejapuskas]

I have to say psychedelic experiences are very different from mystical experiences while 'sober'. I guess you might better understand what Leo means by 'him not choosing the words' and the words 'just getting chosen' and these things if you did psychedelics (that doesn't mean you should or that it is necessary). I have to say I would probably never truly understand how sense of reality is built up, I mean, you can understand it and experience it to a certain extent, but then on psychedelics, it is much more vivid, it can be (I guess it not always is, psychedelic experiences are all different) much more clear to you how the thoughts arise from nothing. It's like boom and it's there, out of nowhere. The degrees to which this happens are clearer in my experience, while sober, it usually happened for me in one bang, like there it was, some mystical experience, on psychedelics, it can also be like a big shift in consciousness, but then as it settles back down, you can clearly see the different things being created. I don't know if I am making sense here, it's just that it is kind of understandable for me that you guys cannot relate to what he is saying if you haven't done psychedelics in the past. But that doesn't mean you aren't the same love, you are.

[Moksha]

@bejapuskas I've never taken drugs, so I was surprised when I not only understood but resonated deeply with the essence of what Leo was saying. I expected a psychotic rant, and instead found the same distancing from ego, sense of awe, and realization of being universal intelligence that I have experienced naturally. I don't believe Leo's experience was an ego death as much as a Self-awakening process. After the first 30 minutes, it seemed like his conditioned mind started to reassert itself as he described being afraid of what this realization would mean for his practical life in the future, unsure of what would happen if the realization didn't last, concerned with following social and moral norms, etc.

I get what you're saying about psychedelics being explosive. For me, the awakening was a more natural process. I'm curious whether people that have had a psychedelic experience are able to continue realizing the same experience after they come down from the high? Are you able to stay aligned with universal intelligence, even when you are off drugs? Do you still feel the ego dissolving, along with its attachments and suffering?

My sense is that psychedelics are like steroids for the brain. The people I've seen take steroids develop muscle faster, but for their size they don't seem to have as much strength as people that develop muscle naturally. No judgment of either path, it's just something I've noticed over years of working out physically, and I'm curious if the same is true for building spiritual muscle.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Moksha

[Nahm]

“Silence speaks as loud as war, and I return to what it was before”. 

VH

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last...the meek shall inherent the earth"

JC

[bejapuskas]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

After the first 30 minutes, it seemed like his conditioned mind started to reassert itself as he described being afraid of what this realization would mean for his practical life in the future, unsure of what would happen if the realization didn't last, concerned with following social and moral norms, etc.

Yeh I suspect what happened for him (because a similar thing happened to me) was that concepts stopped being trusted. Usually when you have some sort of experience when sober, you can still function, but with psychedelics, it can be more radical than that, you can just simply forget what your home is or what your friends are, you just do not even know how you could've ever thought them. And then these concepts start to build up again from zero.

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

I get what you're saying about psychedelics being explosive. For me, the awakening was a more natural process. I'm curious whether people that have had a psychedelic experience are able to continue realizing the same experience after they come down from the high? Are you able to stay aligned with universal intelligence, even when you are off drugs? Do you still feel the ego dissolving, along with its attachments and suffering?

I don't know if you actually know what I am saying. You might say relatively speaking it takes you hours of meditation to experience something that you call mystical, whereas you can just take a psychedelic and it is there for you. But actually the psychedelic can have a very slow build up kind of, that can be less 'explosive' than a sober experience. 

After coming down perfect experience is still there, no worries. It's not like it will un-align you. JC loves you more than you will now.

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

My sense is that psychedelics are like steroids for the brain. The people I've seen take steroids develop muscle faster, but for their size they don't seem to have as much strength as people that develop muscle naturally. No judgment of either path, it's just something I've noticed over years of working out physically, and I'm curious if the same is true for building spiritual muscle.

I don't know how it works for other people, but I don't think just relying on psychedelics is a good idea, that's still being reliant, limiting yourself. Plus it gives you so many lessons about how thoughts work. 

You aren't 'missing out on anything' by not tripping. 

[Moksha]

@bejapuskas Very interesting, thank you. When you say that under psychedelics you forget what your friends are, I bet you can still remember their names, it's just that the boundaries between you and them dissolve and everything is one?

Also interesting to hear that a psychedelic can have a slow build up, rather than exploding you into awareness. I can see not forgetting the lessons of the psychedelic experience, but I guess what I'm asking is how does it translate to your regular life experience? Do you experience the same live connection to who you really are on a regular basis? Do you find your ego continues to dissolve and your desires/aversions fade when you're not under the influence of drugs? Do you suffer less and love more?

I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything  I have no desire to try psychedelics, and I have no judgment for those that do. I'm just curious how it translates to enlightenment and a spiritual life.

That's why I found Leo's experience so interesting. Being free of concepts, experiencing the Oneness of everything, sensing the Mystery of ultimate reality, channeling intelligence word by word, and realizing that you are light is how I describe my own experience. Anyway, it was eye opening that Leo seemed to experience many of the same things.

If there is an apparent difference from what I heard Leo describe, for me there is a holiness to the experience. I've been agnostic for many years, but that is how I would describe it. Healing, Wholeness, and Holiness all derive from the same etymological root. It is not just that you realize everything is One; there is also a sense of progression. It's like Consciousness is playing in the world of form, but part of the play is a deliberate increasing awareness of itself. I feel this happens cosmologically, but also individually, which is really the same thing.

[VeganAwake]

I did psychedelics like 20 years ago...

There were periods of time when the minds constant analyzing judgment or thinking(monkey chatter) just wasn't happening.... there was just Being.

The experience here left a subtle recognition of what was possible.

The minds constant dialogue became more fluid and manipulatable sort of speak. It also became less valued than before. 

❤

[Moksha]

@VeganAwake Thanks, I can see how the initial experience with psychedelics might be a way for people to experience what it is like to simply be, without thought.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Moksha

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Moksha said:

I'm curious whether people that have had a psychedelic experience are able to continue realizing the same experience after they come down from the high?

I could tell that in my case the effects are permanently, more or less. I use 5 meo dmt and psilocibes. I ve been interested about meditation and transcendence but I couldn't get any real improvement, my ego was too strong I think. When I decided start with psichodelics I tried mushroom and I get absolutely amazed. It's so deep, you could see your mind, the hardware. Searching I arrived to 5 meo and 5 meo brought me to this site. 5 meo is pure magic. There isn't another description. It brokes your ego for a while . A mystical experience induced. After that you change for ever, same after a natural mystic experience. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[bejapuskas]

8 hours ago, Moksha said:

Very interesting, thank you. When you say that under psychedelics you forget what your friends are, I bet you can still remember their names, it's just that the boundaries between you and them dissolve and everything is one?

Yes and no, depends on dosage, individual, environment, people around, time after you took the substance etc... I mean before I did I also was thinking similarly to you, but then it is just super different from the type of states you get from meditation and yoga, trust me. It's kind of undescribable. But for example at one point I just couldn't understand what 'trust' is or what 'friendship' is. It's just that the lack of boundaries is so radically built into your experience that it can get really hard to function in that. Realizing that trust is a function of a thought can then seem like a super big realization once it starts coming back and you discover sense of reality again. You might forget where you live, you might stop believing the trip will end... Psychedelics are just super powerful like that, I am not saying it is good or bad for spiritual muscles, but I don't think you understand what psychedelics can do. It's hard to believe.

8 hours ago, Moksha said:

Also interesting to hear that a psychedelic can have a slow build up, rather than exploding you into awareness. I can see not forgetting the lessons of the psychedelic experience, but I guess what I'm asking is how does it translate to your regular life experience? Do you experience the same live connection to who you really are on a regular basis? Do you find your ego continues to dissolve and your desires/aversions fade when you're not under the influence of drugs? Do you suffer less and love more?

It is very hard not to forget because it is so crazy honestly. It's like totally different neighbourhood of experience. I guess I am not the best person to ask for this as I don't use psychedelics a lot or regularly, actually I think that would be disastrous for me, like forcing a lot you know. In my experience both sober lessons and psychedelic lessons are incredible, they point at similar things, they are just super different, I wouldn't say one is more powerful than the other. But psychedelics can open up things you might not discover with meditation and vice versa. I think after first psychedelic trip it's a big paradigm shift, I cannot say in what way, but it is radical, kinda like if you had your first mystical state. I imagine if I had my first mystical state while on psychs and only then while sober, it might have also been a big paradigm shift I don't know honestly... I feel my life is just flowering all the time, if I do what I want. Maybe if you have zero interest in psychs just don't do them. Only do them if you are thirsty for them, but like in a good way, not escapit way. Tripping for bad reasons is useless.

[Moksha]

@Breakingthewall @bejapuskas I appreciate both of you answering my questions. I've read about Aldous Huxley's experiences from Doors of Perception and afterwards, and just curious how others have experienced enlightenment through drugs compared to other paths.

I've never even tried marijuana, and while that could happen at some point, I don't feel comfortable trying anything close to psychedelics. My own journey has been the traditional path of suffering, but that can be a hard drug in its own right.

It is a major paradigm shift, whatever causes it. For me, the suffering was intense and long enough that it finally woke me up. Like you, I don't see how I could go back to blindly believing in the lies of the ego. I don't take it for granted though. I know the conditioned mind is the devil, and will never give up vying for my attention. Fortunately once you are awake, you are no longer completely at the mercy of your mind. You Just have to stay vigilant and continue dissolving attachments. I see it as a lifelong journey, but it's already so much better than it was.

[bejapuskas]

@Moksha  I don't think reading about psychs will make you understand what they do, I mean, it is helpful to have some knowledge, but like once you dive deep into the experience it is completely different. It's kind of like reading about football or watching football on TV or talking to people who play football and then playing it. 

If you don't feel comfortable my advice would be just don't do it. It would definitely reveal new things, just like doing anything you have never tried before, but probably not worth it.

 

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Moksha said:

For me, the suffering was intense and long enough that it finally woke me up.

Have an ego that make you suffer could be the best gift . I ve a ego like that too, but for me was impossible to understand all of his levels. With psilocibe I had a revelation, I saw myself as a child, I saw how I protect myself of the reject and how that protection is useless since protect you from a thing that doesn't exist.  After that I started to be worse, I couldn't sleep , etc. I realized that inside me was a sickness, but since I realized how the sickness was, it dissolved very fast, in less than a month I was feeling better than ever since I'm an adult .This is the power of a single dose of psichodelics

[Moksha]

@bejapuskas I hear you. Watching Leo's video, there is an intensity to the experience that may be rare for people that awaken naturally. Eckhart Tolle's awakening was intense, but he is probably the exception.

Intensity aside, I was struck by the commonalities in our experience. I read some of the comments from people on YouTube, and many of them thought Leo was delusional. For me though, everything he said made surprising sense, and resonated with my own experience.

Ultimately, what matters is the present moment and our ability to accept and appreciate what is. Sometimes I feel anxious about the future, like what if I lose clarity and fall back into the trap of my conditioned mind? Then I realize that the anxiety is FROM my conditioned mind. It's just another ego trap. All I have to do is live in the present moment. There is peace, light, and happiness here.

@Breakingthewall I completely agree. The ego serves an unknowing purpose by creating the suffering that ultimately sets us free. Once you are free, the ego desperately tries to reel you back in.  But by then, it's too late. You have already experienced the freedom of who you really are, and it's easier to see through the ego's lies. 

One of the most healing moments for me has been the realization of the chain of events that created my ego in the first place. Like you, I saw myself as a child and understood experientially how I had built a protective wall without realizing it. Unfortunately, the wall proved to be a trap rather than a sanctuary. Separating from my ego was like a blast of light that made this clear in a way I had never understood before. I wish it had happened earlier, but that is another trap of the ego. Things happen when they are supposed to happen; it is all inevitable.

[bejapuskas]

@Moksha  I don't think he is like a rare exception... But maybe this is me assuming what their experience was in the same way you are doing it. I really don't think you can understand psychedelics without trying them.

[Moksha]

@bejapuskas I think Eckhart's experience was rare in the sense that it totally transformed his life based on a single dramatic event. He no longer suffered, but he didn't know why he no longer suffered. It still took years to deepen his awareness and process what it meant for his life, but the experience itself was intense in a way I haven't heard many describe.

I agree 100% on not understanding psychedelics without trying them. I'm ok with that.

[bejapuskas]

@Moksha  Oh I see yeh, that is quite rare. I wonder if you can avoid all suffering, like literally every single bit.

I wasn't trying to make you feel inferior or anything, sorry if it sounded like that.