Banning member @DrewNows.

[Fran11]

20 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Posts denying the existence of microbes, denying microbes can negatively impact health, the coronavirus is a hoax by scientists etc. is over the line. 

Agree.

I'm not the one to judge wether the banning was appropiate or not.

His perspective contained kernels of truth (microbes impacting hosts differently according to many factors, some which are modifiable), but implying that an individual is 100% capable and responsible of avoiding desease just by looking over these factors, and saying "microbes are our friends" and "tests are a hoax" is definetly crossing the line.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Fran11

[blandana]

28 minutes ago, Fadl said:

I’m new here and I’ve read the guidelines twice but still can’t understand what a conspiracy theory means around here. For me a conspiracy theory is stuff like flat earth, the reptilian controlling the world, the aliens built the pyramids … etc.

I mean can we talk about something (which considered by some of you as a conspiracy) by providing sufficient evidence? I mean what a conspiracy theory after all? Everybody is conspiring against everybody … China against the USA, Russia against Europe, Europe against Africa, USA  against China, Russia against the USA, the USA against Europe, Europe Against the USA, every nationality against every nationality, every  cult against every cult … etc. It is obvious I think and they call it politics, No?
 

I believe "conspiracy theory" means you are putting forth an opinion and acting like it is true or just posting nonsense to the point where someone might believe what you claim to be true even if its not. You probably have an obligation to doubt yourself and make a disclaimer about it if you're posting stuff that seems "really weird" or isn't backed by scientific fact.

Edited October 23, 2020 by blandana

[Fadl]

28 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It’s not binary, there are degrees of conspiracy theories and misinformation. There are grey areas, yet lines need to be drawn - even if they aren’t drawn perfectly.

Posts denying the existence of microbes, denying microbes can negatively impact health, the coronavirus is a hoax by scientists etc. is over the line. This is in the same league as flat earthers.

My friend I’m not talking about denying microbes that’s just silly. I lived in Spain the last year and I know how sever the situation is, everybody here wear a mask, it is very very rare to see someone who doesn’t.

My question is does this forum accept facts? And by facts I mean the things that already happened and existed in this reality. 

[Fadl]

9 minutes ago, blandana said:

I believe "conspiracy theory" means you are putting forth an opinion and acting like it is true or just posting nonsense to the point where someone might believe what you claim to be true even if its not. You probably have an obligation to doubt yourself and make a disclaimer about it if you're posting stuff that seems "really weird" or isn't backed by scientific fact.

Ok I agree with you, but I’m talking about the red lines in this forum, they are a bit vague in my opinion. 

And I assure you that I’m very scientific and academic. 

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Fadl said:

My friend I’m not talking about denying microbes that’s just silly. I lived in Spain the last year and I know how sever the situation is, everybody here wear a mask, it is very very rare to see someone who doesn’t.

You asked about what qualifies as a conspiracy theory. I replied that there is a range of degrees and there are grey areas. The conspiracy theory under consideration in this situation involved denying microbes exist, health impact of microbes, coronavirus hoax etc. I'm not suggesting you believe that. This situation can give you an idea of what is over-the-line in terms of conspiracy theory and misinformation. 

15 minutes ago, Fadl said:

My question is does this forum accept facts? And by facts I mean the things that already happened and existed in this reality. 

This gets into a tricky area of what is a "fact". There are many grey areas of theories with ambiguous "facts", yet to the holder of the theory, they are rock solid "facts". This gets into issues regarding an objective, external, universal reality. A good explanation of this in Leo's video on open-mindedness.

In basic terms, yes - evidence and facts are fine - yet it can get tricky in some contexts. 

[Loving Radiance]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

gaslit about covid denialism

What dynamics of covid denialism are gaslighting? Or could you point me to a thread were this was already discussed?

I am especially interested about that because a covid denier I know personally made a list of examples of actions by the German government that are interpreted by him as gaslighting the whole population. That would be just comical projection.

[Fadl]

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This gets into a tricky area of what is a "fact".

A fact is: something that already happened and already existed in this reality. 

 

44 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

In basic terms, yes - evidence and facts are fine - yet it can get tricky in some contexts. 

Cool, I understand what you mean. thanks for replying. 

[Opo]

29 minutes ago, Fadl said:

A fact is: something that already happened and already existed in this reality. 

"something known to exist or to have happened" 

[commie]

2 hours ago, Fadl said:

I mean can we talk about something (which considered by some of you as a conspiracy) by providing sufficient evidence? I mean what a conspiracy theory after all? Everybody is conspiring against everybody … China against the USA, Russia against Europe, Europe against Africa, USA  against China, Russia against the USA, the USA against Europe, Europe Against the USA, every nationality against every nationality, every  cult against every cult … etc. It is obvious I think and they call it politics, No?

You've got many answers but I don't think any was about an especially problematic aspect of the worst conspiracy theories: disinformation and paranoid nonsense. Regular conspiracies involve secrecy but not lying to the public about the facts of the matter. The conspiracy theories generally frowned are the ones about grandiose coverups, the (((liberal))) media and so forth. So it seems like it would make sense to tolerate the regular theories and reject the paranoid ones.

But the trouble is that on the one hand there occasionally are legit conspiracies involving mass deception, for instance for the purpose of justifying war and on the other hand there are paranoid theories such as Project Fear which would be difficult to suppress because of the cultural power of their promoters. In practice that makes conspiracy theories yet another point of failure of liberalism.

You can provide evidence for almost anything so requiring evidence wouldn't help.

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Conspiracy theories that microbes are a hoax is a different ballgame. The existence of microbes is not someone’s personal opinion or knowledge. Spreading anti-microbe misinformation and conspiracy theories is counter to consciousness work. And it’s harmful in the age of covid.

Perhaps the guy isn't well informed about these topics. I myself have seen different microbe species directly under the microscope a few years ago. But viruses are still in theory land until now as far as I know. That's why there's no cure for viral infections btw.

But anyway, I don't believe his ultimate point was to deny these things, he was more focused on the importance of the immune system and raising vibration which is popular within energetic kind of narratives. I don't really see that worthy of banning, perhaps a warning would have been enough. The guy was never a troll. And if he's not distorting people's views on the forum (since I saw no one agreed with his views even though he's been like that for a while, so it feels more like healthy challenging of the mainstream narrative), then he's probably just working his stuff out, and imo the forum is a good place for that. Just don't take it seriously as long as it's not causing harm.

[commie]

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

But viruses are still in theory land until now as far as I know. That's why there's no cure for viral infections btw.

Where did you get that idea?

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

And if he's not distorting people's views on the forum (since I saw no one agreed with his views even though he's been like that for a while, so it feels more like healthy challenging of the mainstream narrative)

You're giving people too much credit. At least one other forum member sounds like they're being disinformed about viruses...

Edited October 24, 2020 by commie

[Preety_India]

10 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I don't really see that worthy of banning, perhaps a warning would have been enough. The guy was never a troll.

I agree. He wasn't a troll. 

A warning point might have been okay. 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Preety_India

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Perhaps the guy isn't well informed about these topics.

I tried to discuss it with him several times. 

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I myself have seen different microbe species directly under the microscope a few years ago. But viruses are still in theory land until now as far as I know. That's why there's no cure for viral infections btw.

Viruses can be visualized under microscopes, similar to bacteria. Viruses are not “theory” in layman’s terms. 
It’s not as simple as “a cure”. There are effective vaccines and anti-viral medications. Similar to antibiotics against bacteria’s. 
 

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

he was more focused on the importance of the immune system and raising vibration which is popular within energetic kind of narratives. I don't really see that worthy of banning,

That’s not why he was banned.

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

perhaps a warning would have been enough.

He was given multiple warnings.

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

it feels more like healthy challenging of the mainstream narrative),

Spreading misinformation like microbes don’t exist, microbes can’t negatively impact health, the coronavirus is a hoax by scientists. etc. is not considered “healthy challenging of mainstream media”

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Viruses can be visualized under microscopes, similar to bacteria. Viruses are not “theory” in layman’s terms.

 

Not that they don't exist, but it's debatable where they come from. One theory suggests that they come from the body itself, not from the environment. And the difference between viruses would be due to the different external forces that make the body release those viruses in response to the environment. So, in this case, the immune system is the biggest factor and distancing oneself from toxic mental environments, such as ones full of fear mongering, would be the best way to protect oneself.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

One theory suggests that they come from the body itself, not from the environment. And the difference between viruses would be due to the different external forces that make the body release those viruses in response to the environment. So, in this case, the immune system is the biggest factor and distancing oneself from toxic mental environments, such as ones full of fear mongering, would be the best way to protect oneself.

It’s not as simple as “internal” and “external” since nearly all living organisms are in a symbiosis with viruses. There is some truth in what you write, yet it’s also not quite accurate how it is framed. I’m interested in discussions about viruses and microbes - I’ve participated in several on the forum. Yet I Don’t want to derail this thread.

[Opo]

44 minutes ago, commie said:

 In practice that makes conspiracy theories yet another point of failure of liberalism.

Do you have an alternative? 

[Leo Gura]

Look, power is exercised in the running of any organization. Executive decisions sometimes have to be made. If I felt like this guy was willing to change his ways and stop with spreading conspiracy theories, then I would let him stay. But such people cannot be cured. After they are warned or criticized, they only double down on their position and get even more aggressive and start crying "censorship". It's a disease of the mind that has no cure.

Not only did he spread conspiracy theories, he does it in an obnoxious way, portraying us all as idiots and sheep. That's classic gaslighting and it won't be tolerated here.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet I Don’t want to derail this thread.

I was trying to understand @DrewNows's perspective. Maybe that's what the raising vibration thing is all about because from that point of view it makes perfect sense.

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Look, power is exercised in the running of any organization. If I felt like this guy was willing to change his ways and stop with spreading conspiracy theories, then I would let him stay.

Understandable.

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But such people cannot be cured. After they are warned or criticized, they only double down and get even more aggressive and start crying "censorship". It's a disease of the mind that has no cure.

It's interesting to see it put this way. I'm guessing for him, it probably seems like quite the opposite. But since you've already set your mind on this thing, it's pointless to keep trying to talk you out of it. I didn't like the political subforum in the first place anyway.

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I was trying to understand @DrewNows's perspective. Maybe that's what the raising vibration thing is all about because from that point of view it makes perfect sense.

Of course it makes sense to a mind that believes in its own misunderstanding and conspiracy theory. No one is questioning their authenticity. Alex Jones sincerely believes his views are true, yet that type of stuff doesn’t fly here. It’s not an anything goes forum.