Isn't it foolish to think that outside world doesnt exist? and object doesnt exist?

[Moksha]

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

You are the Truth, so how could you not? 

I am

[Javfly33]

5 minutes ago, The0Self said:

That's also in your imagination. This is a feature not a bug, this never getting to the end; the answer. Consciousness is illusion, so what would you expect?

Consciousness is not an illusion. Is all that exists! 

[The0Self]

26 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I meant to teach him not knowing.

It was meant to be a joke hehe

Sounded like you were trying to guide. Maybe I misread. There isn't anything anyone could ever do to step outside of unconditional love.

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Consciousness is not an illusion. Is all that exists! 

What is real is what seems real. Everything including consciousness is the unspeakable appearing as the speakable.

[4201]

27 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Is it really true, as opposed to false? Or by what standards and from what perspective? Interesting that "know" and "no" sound the same. "Know" just has two useless letters on either end. 

Forget the tree. Through the screen I can project anything I want on anyone here. I can imagine them thinking or feeling any particular way based on my objectives and how I want them to reflect or reinforce the idea I have of myself and my understanding. Will I ever be correct? Will my approximations and lazy imagination ever come close to the actuality? Or is love and real respect interaction letting go of the belief that I know them or myself or even understand the subject we're talking about? 

Yes, interpolation from what is thought is always less reliable than what is. It often differs and so what is should always be favored.

Right now in my experience, if I press against a wall I can feel the pressure of the wall holding me back. I interpret this situation from what I perceive of course, so that idea of the wall holding me back is just an idea. I don't take issue with the fact that I created this idea.

But there is substance to this idea. It's not just an idea, it's true. The difference between this idea and other false ideas is that when I let go of the false ideas, the limitation goes away. This limitation, although perceived, will never go away. Even if I stop interpreting the situation into a limitation, I won't go through the wall. 

This is why I take issue with the idea of all being a dream or an illusion. Although they cannot be directly experienced, only interpreted, there are unbreakable rules. If those rules are, then it cannot all be nothing. There must be something material holding those rules, even if I am not equipped to directly experience this material.

[4201]

25 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Any awakened being will tell you that Truth is the ultimate mystery. We can experience it nonconceptually, but it is impossible to comprehend.

That it is impossible to comprehend is a belief. You previously mentionned philosophers would say it's not possible to know anything. That its not possible to know is something they think they know (another belief).

[Osaid]

You've been inside your mind this whole time

You saw something in your mind that has certain qualities, and called it a "wall" and "physical" and "something outside of my mind"

You're just throwing labels onto things and thinking it differentiates it from your mind. This is just a labelling game. 

When you see a wall in your dream you could very well believe that it isn't inside of your mind and instead outside of it, but we know that isn't true.

[commie]

16 minutes ago, 4201 said:

The difference between this idea and other false ideas is that when I let go of the false ideas, the limitation goes away. This limitation, although perceived, will never go away. Even if I stop interpreting the situation into a limitation, I won't go through the wall. 

This is why I take issue with the idea of all being a dream or an illusion. Although they cannot be directly experienced, only interpreted, there are unbreakable rules.

Most false ideas worth talking about are like this actually. When you understand what was wrong about Newton's theory, you don't float away.

To the extent that they are any good, rules don't break easily in the context in which they were devised. That doesn't make them unbreakable.

16 minutes ago, 4201 said:

There must be something material holding those rules, even if I am not equipped to directly experience this material.

Why would it have to be material?

Edited October 23, 2020 by commie

[Moksha]

17 minutes ago, 4201 said:

That it is impossible to comprehend is a belief. You previously mentionned philosophers would say it's not possible to know anything. That its not possible to know is something they think they know (another belief).

You just posted about unbreakable rules. Maybe the mystery of Ultimate reality is one of those rules.

[4201]

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

You've been inside your mind this whole time

You saw something in your mind that has certain qualities, and called it a "wall" and "physical" and "something outside of my mind"

You're just throwing labels onto things and thinking it differentiates it from your mind. This is just a labelling game. 

When you see a wall in your dream you could very well believe that it isn't inside of your mind and instead outside of it, but we know that isn't true.

Ok but then how do you know that you created those things and they do not correspond to anything outside? I know that the thought is inside and that I can't experience what is outside but it is still thought that what I perceived has an analog outside.

How do you know that there is no outside?

I do see how assuming there is a territory because of the map is just an assumption, but letting go of this assumption reveals that I don't know if there is an outside, not that there is no outside.

 

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, 4201 said:

 

How do you know that there is no outside?

 

 

Asking yourself the opposite question might be insightful.

How would you verify that there is something as "an outside"?

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Javfly33

[peachboy]

There is no outside or inside.

[4201]

 

12 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You just posted about unbreakable rules. Maybe the mystery of Ultimate reality is one of those rules.

Please don't bullshit yourself using my bullshit 

 

27 minutes ago, commie said:

To the extent that they are any good, rules don't break easily in the context in which they were devised. That doesn't make them unbreakable.

Again in this context the rules are the map and whatever implement those rules is the territory. The theory may be wrong but the behavior is consistent.

This analogy is no better than using the thought of an apple vs an apple it self. Or the wall, or anything.

I do admit that I'm believing there's an actual apple outside is just an assumption, but so is assuming there is no outside.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by 4201

[Moksha]

Just now, 4201 said:

Please don't bullshit yourself using my bullshit 

 All concepts are bullshit.

[4201]

9 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Asking yourself the opposite question might be insightful.

How would you verify that there is something as "an outside"?

 

The mind can't. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It might or might not be there. I just don't know.

[Forestluv]

One of the best self-inquiry questions is "What is existence?".

[Moksha]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

One of the best self-inquiry questions is "What is existence?".

I agree. Literally, "exist" means "stand out" or be manifested. Existence may or may not be real.

[cetus]

14 minutes ago, 4201 said:

The mind can't. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It might or might not be there. I just don't know.

There is something "there" -so to speak. But there is nothing that is "outside" of you.

[Javfly33]

 

28 minutes ago, 4201 said:

The mind can't. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It might or might not be there. I just don't know.

Let´s say we are having a chat in the living room and I tell you I have put 1 million dollars for you in the garden. I ask you to go "outside" to verify that such a thing as an outside phyiscal world (as a garden) exists while we are having the chat at the living room.

So you all excited go out to the garden. But notice what happens when you arrive. The garden is not "outhere", isn´t ? 

Have you ever experienced "outhere" apart in the form of a thought/idea?

Try to see that the word "outhere" is an idea and never an experience.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Javfly33

[from chaos into self]

32 minutes ago, cetus said:

There is something "there" -so to speak. But there is nothing that is "outside" of you.

There appears to be outside stuff. Cars that go vroom and people that chatter. Maybe I can’t prove it but my senses support the assumption as consistent.