Isn't it foolish to think that outside world doesnt exist? and object doesnt exist?

[from chaos into self]

@Raven1998 without perception we have no knowledge of the world. With perception the world appears to us. If world exists without perception, we do not know. 
 

I personally assume there is world out there. But I know that I cannot know. I can only play along with appearance. Belief in the Now.

[Adamq8]

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

[Raven1998]

5 minutes ago, from chaos into self said:

@Raven1998 without perception we have no knowledge of the world. With perception the world appears to us. If world exists without perception, we do not know. 
 

I personally assume there is world out there. But I know that I cannot know. I can only play along with appearance. Belief in the Now.

but now we know.. world exist without a observer.. isnt it?

2 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

21 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You're not annoying me. Belief and confusion are codependent, like light and dark you cannot have one without the other. So, we create a system out of belief to dispel confusion, but instead it creates confusion. I think that's what you're experiencing. 

Beyond beliefs you are reborn every "moment", we aren't born when we think we are. 

So, Happy Birthday!!! Fresh clean slate, right here, right now

[Raven1998]

7 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

psychedelic is hard to acces in here

6 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

25 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You're not annoying me. Belief and confusion are codependent, like light and dark you cannot have one without the other. So, we create a system out of belief to dispel confusion, but instead it creates confusion. I think that's what you're experiencing. 

Beyond beliefs you are reborn every "moment", we aren't born when we think we are. 

So, Happy Birthday!!! Fresh clean slate, right here, right now

[from chaos into self]

No one knows the world without observation. In knowing the world there is only illusion. We only “know” as far as what we perceive. Is that even knowing? It is appearance alone. Is the world real? I cannot know.

[Raven1998]

11 minutes ago, from chaos into self said:

@Raven1998 without perception we have no knowledge of the world. With perception the world appears to us. If world exists without perception, we do not know. 
 

I personally assume there is world out there. But I know that I cannot know. I can only play along with appearance. Belief in the Now.

i think world exist without a prceiver. but without a preceiver, no one perceives it???

[Raven1998]

3 minutes ago, from chaos into self said:

No one knows the world without observation. In knowing the world there is only illusion. We only “know” as far as what we perceive. Is that even knowing? It is appearance alone. Is the world real? I cannot know.

but we can feel something.. like solidity, rough,smooth,liquid,form.. ??

12 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

31 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You're not annoying me. Belief and confusion are codependent, like light and dark you cannot have one without the other. So, we create a system out of belief to dispel confusion, but instead it creates confusion. I think that's what you're experiencing. 

Beyond beliefs you are reborn every "moment", we aren't born when we think we are. 

So, Happy Birthday!!! Fresh clean slate, right here, right now

[Raven1998]

31 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

 

50 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

i think world exist without a prceiver. but without a preceiver, no one perceives it???

[4201]

33 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Take a psychedelics and alot of your question will be answered and thats a true story! 

As an experienced psychedelic user, I struggle to see how anyone can say for sure materialism is false. I had multiple awakenings but none "debunked" the reality of things, it just debunked the idea of "me".

At least in my experience, no matter how much psychedelics you take and no matter what you think, bricks are still hard as bricks. There's no doubt that I could pretend a brick to be soft, but this pretension would be obvious.

The thing is, this whole "debunking materialism" business doesn't seem to go anywhere. Suffering comes from the thought of a self, not from the bricks being bricks.

[4201]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Thing and thought arise together. One is material and one is not material. One says one is a thing, but is not a thing itself. So how would it know? 

Thoughts affect each other. What is believed will change what is thought, but not "what is". What is can influence what is thought, but what is thought can only influence what is through physical use of muscles.

Is this relationship only believed? If so then I can literally grow wings and fly right now. I am open and I have been open to the idea that this relationship may only be believed, yet I never have grown wings.

[mandyjw]

25 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Thoughts affect each other. What is believed will change what is thought, but not "what is". What is can influence what is thought, but what is thought can only influence what is through physical use of muscles.

Is this relationship only believed? If so then I can literally grow wings and fly right now. I am open and I have been open to the idea that this relationship may only be believed, yet I never have grown wings.

You don't take into account that "you" and "time" don't actually exist. "You" spend more time and energy wanting and imagining you as you are than you do with wings. Wings are likely a hindrance to the expression of life that is wanted from "you". 

However if you drop the you idea and look at a bird in the sky, there you go. "You're" already flying. That's the beginning of the open door of open-mindedness. Next might come the literal out of body experience of flying. Who knows? Anything could happen. 

What I'm talking about is already what's already happening anyway, but it's so obvious we don't give it attention. There are no things until thought says so. It's the old, "if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound?" thing. No it doesn't make a sound. No there's no thing until there's a thought of a thing. 

There's no bird flying until there's a thought of you and bird as two separate "things". What came first, thought or thing? "You" are already winged and flying. It all hinges on how you define you. That's the ultimate thought/thing.

Edited October 23, 2020 by mandyjw

[The0Self]

21 minutes ago, 4201 said:

As an experienced psychedelic user, I struggle to see how anyone can say for sure materialism is false. I had multiple awakenings but none "debunked" the reality of things, it just debunked the idea of "me".

At least in my experience, no matter how much psychedelics you take and no matter what you think, bricks are still hard as bricks. There's no doubt that I could pretend a brick to be soft, but this pretension would be obvious.

The thing is, this whole "debunking materialism" business doesn't seem to go anywhere. Suffering comes from the thought of a self, not from the bricks being bricks.

Yeah. The bricks are just bricks. They're also everything, which is no-thing.

[Member]

The outside is the inside and the inside is the outside.

You project reality each moment. This is your true nature.

[Javfly33]

Its simple. Its a fucking dream of your mind. Your mind is dreaming your body, other bodies and objects.

Only your mind exists. So you are your mind. Not your brain-mind. God_mind. You are God. There aren´t any objects or even people. They are all consciousness morfing into a form.

Ta-da!

[Javfly33]

@4201 Suffering also deeply comes from the belief that there´s such a thing as a physical reality. Because if there´s a physical reality that means there´s something outside of you. So you are vulnerable of this "thing outside yourself" and you are incomplete.

Fortunately all is God. No such a thing as a "outside world". 

Forget about the self. How suffering would be possible if you are deeply consciouss everything is You and your imagination? 

[4201]

7 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

What I'm talking about is already what's already happening anyway, but it's so obvious we don't give it attention. There are no things until thought says so. It's the old, "if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound?" thing. No it doesn't make a sound. No there's no thing until there's a thought of a thing. 

If nothing hears the tree falling but it fell, there's absolutely no way to say if it made a sound or not. I would say "I don't know" if it made a sound. How can you say you know it made no sound?

Because you think there is nothing except what you are aware of, nothing but thoughts. But therefore the idea of the bricks being real is also a thought (since there is nothing but thoughts), so you can walk through walls if you stop believing the bricks in the wall are real.

So despite every moment confirming the "real world hypothesis", all I can say is that I don't know if that hypothesis is true. I don't know if things exist or are just thoughts. But why believe that they don't exist? Just to stop conceptualizing about them? Isn't it better to accept that you don't know?

I do see how denying the existence of anything that is not awareness is useful to avoid conceptualizing about things that are not the present moment, but despite the usefulness of this "technique", is it really true?

[Gesundheit]

People believe in all kinds of things. Weird, but it happens all the time all around the world. And that's not a belief. That's reality. Anyone who cares to look around will see. I'll tell you something though, most of the human activities are designed for control. So, leave no exception. The main reason why any ideology exists is because of the control it provides. People fight over control all the time, through all means, ranging from simple civil discussions and debates to wars and genocides to media and advertising to teaching and discovering to whatever the heck people do.

[Moksha]

@mandyjw An unobserved tree falling in the forest doesn't make a sound because sound is a sense perception. It only becomes a sound when there is a sensor to interpret the air waves. That doesn't mean the tree isn't real.

Atoms are real. Space is real. Time is real. Just because they are relative to the perceiver doesn't mean they are unreal.

Einstein said that, "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility...The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle.”

From an ultimate perspective though, everything we try to comprehend is a false duality. Real vs. Unreal, Diversity vs. Unity, Time vs. Timeless are all dualistic concepts. That is why ultimate reality is beyond human comprehension.

Quote

Lord of the gods, you are the abode of the universe. Changeless, you are what is and what is not, and beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence. You are the first among the gods, the timeless spirit, the resting place of all beings. You are the knower and the thing which is known. You are the final home; with your infinite form you pervade the cosmos. (Bhagavad Gita 11:37-38)

Edited October 23, 2020 by Moksha

[4201]

20 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@4201 Suffering also deeply comes from the belief that there´s such a thing as a physical reality. Because if there´s a physical reality that means there´s something outside of you. So you are vulnerable of this "thing outside yourself" and you are incomplete.

Fortunately all is God. No such a thing as a "outside world". 

You only suffer your vulnerability if you care about what the outside will do to you. No me = no fear about that. Does the illusion that you control the outside hide the fear for you?

22 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Forget about the self. How suffering would be possible if you are deeply consciouss everything is You and your imagination? 

I am doing the suffering to survive. It is an activity I do by reacting to what comes within awareness for the sake of keeping the "me" alive. Realizing that I'm the one doing that is sufficient to stop suffering (which is the same as realizing no me).

Sure, if nothing exists outside of the mind then I am God. But then I could fly and walk through brick walls, which I can't do.

[Javfly33]

@4201 It´s not belief. Its common sense.

If you are not consciouss of something, you are not consciouss. Case closed.

In your experience there´s only conciousness. Consciousness of sounds, images, thoughts, sensations...etc.

You are basically saying something like "I dont have a million dollars in my bank account". "But maybe I do". "How could I know if I don´t". "Sure I can look at my bank account and see that I have 0$. But who knows? Maybe I have a million".

It just doesn´t make sense. If there´s no million dollars in your bank account why you still belief "maybe there is"?

In the same sense, if there´s no tree in your current direct experience, why you still say "but maybe there is a tree!". Wut?

Materialim is basically magical thinking. Which is not that surprising that most humans belief in since look how little kids belief in santa claus just because they are given solid beliefs and conditioning from their culture.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Javfly33