Refrigerator is my consciousness vs in my brain:

[ItO]

Me and my robot are looking at a refrigerator.

For the robot there's no other reality that the bits of his memory, just like for me the reality boils down to my perceptions.

 

The robot wouldn't know if there was a reality more real behind his memory bits, which there is! (from my perspective)

That shows that there is a possibility that there is a layer behind my perceptions, and it's not possible for me to know, maybe I'm limited by my bits.

 

All of this of course is being said by me here in my consciousness, so we can also tell that I'm spinning the webs here. THIS also is only my perceptions. This.

My point is that how would you know? Maybe if I had a mystical experience, we would have a different conversation.

 

Just because it's the most efficient or elegant way for the universe to be? 

Maybe there are infinite turtles all the way down, whatever that would mean.

 

I don't think that thought experiments are enough for these kind of questions. 

I understand the concept, that everything is perception, even this problem/paradox here is made up by me. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. How can it be more than a perspective?

[Inliytened1]

I hope you and your robot are enjoying the day

31 minutes ago, ItO said:

Me and my robot are looking at a refrigerator.

For the robot there's no other reality that the bits of his memory, just like for me the reality boils down to my perceptions.

The robot wouldn't know if there was a reality more real behind his memory bits, which there is! (from my perspective)

That shows that there is a possibility that there is a layer behind my perceptions, and it's not possible for me to know, maybe I'm limited by my bits.

Or consider that this could be you imagining that the robot wouldn't know...and that you are imagining the robot and everything else.  The robot is a projection of your mind

 

33 minutes ago, ItO said:

Maybe if I had a mystical experience, we would have a different conversation.

You answered your own inquiry

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ItO said:

My point is that how would you know?

Why do you assume that infinite consciousness is not possible?

If you became infinitely conscious you'd realize that consciousness is all there is.

[Shin]

How do you know what the reality of the robot is ?

Have you ever been a robot ? ?

[Javfly33]

There is no robot. 

[Someone here]

You don't know what you don't know. 

[ItO]

10 hours ago, Shin said:

How do you know what the reality of the robot is ?

Have you ever been a robot ? ?

I created the robot.

2 cameras for eyes, the image is edited in real time to find patterns in it. It can "recognize" the refrigerator and can execute the function that I wrote in code for the response to this recognition. etc. etc. 

Its code, bits in memory. If the robot says to me that there's no reality to the refrigerator beyond his memory, I see through his delusion. 

Maybe me and you are like this robot.. 

 

11 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Or consider that this could be you imagining that the robot wouldn't know...and that you are imagining the robot and everything else.  The robot is a projection of your mind

That's exactly right. The robot may also think that, that I'm just the projection of his mind.

What I'm trying to illustrate with this robot thought experiment is that "only-perceptions-exist" idea is unfalsifiable. It's certainly possible and self consistent, we agree about that. But it's also can be not true, like I'm trying to show with this robot story. 

The fact that nothing exists for the robot except his code and memory, doesn't mean that the refrigerator he sees IS code and memory. Just like the fact that everything that happens to me is my perceptions, doesn't necessarily mean that the fridge doesn't exist "out there somewhere". 

I really hope I'm clear here, it's a subtle point. It takes me a very long time to write and formulate all of this and it still doesn't come as clear as I want it to. It's a process..

 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Why do you assume that infinite consciousness is not possible?

Maybe because nothing of the sort was experienced by me, understandable.. but I'm not ideologically opposed to it or something.

 

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you became infinitely conscious you'd realize that consciousness is all there is.

Probably, we'll see. In the meantime I'm writing from a more limited place.

In your videos you suggest the thought experiment that verifies that everything happens in consciousness. I think I realize that. It doesn't lead me to the conclusion that there's nothing "behind" my perceptions.

Of course this suspicion itself that something might still be "behind" things, happens in consciousness. But that's doesn't solve the problem, because I might be in the robot's position. The robot may get convinced that the fridge is just bits in memory.

It seems that there's just no way of getting this problem sorted with logic, so why then make videos that appeal to logic?

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, ItO said:

I think I realize that. It doesn't lead me to the conclusion that there's nothing "behind" my perceptions.

It's not a conclusion. It's awakening.

You will not get it before awakening.

[Rilles]

14 hours ago, ItO said:

Me and my robot are looking at a refrigerator.

For the robot there's no other reality that the bits of his memory, just like for me the reality boils down to my perceptions.

 

The robot wouldn't know if there was a reality more real behind his memory bits, which there is! (from my perspective)

That shows that there is a possibility that there is a layer behind my perceptions, and it's not possible for me to know, maybe I'm limited by my bits.

 

All of this of course is being said by me here in my consciousness, so we can also tell that I'm spinning the webs here. THIS also is only my perceptions. This.

My point is that how would you know? Maybe if I had a mystical experience, we would have a different conversation.

 

Just because it's the most efficient or elegant way for the universe to be? 

Maybe there are infinite turtles all the way down, whatever that would mean.

 

I don't think that thought experiments are enough for these kind of questions. 

I understand the concept, that everything is perception, even this problem/paradox here is made up by me. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. How can it be more than a perspective?

Ugh, too much monkeying in your mind, go to your fridge and find the "boundary" between your consciousness and that fridge, do that for a 100 hours. 

Go to your room and contemplate if that fridge exists outside your awareness. Not by thinking about it... By looking directly in your experience. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Rilles

[Someone here]

20 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Go to your room and contemplate if that fridge exists outside your awareness. Not by thinking about it... By looking directly in your experience. 

The whole point is that if it exists outside your experience then you can't verify that from within your experience...you are trying to verify if the fridge exists outside of your experience from within your experience.. Do you see something wrong here?  Come on guys what's wrong with yall lol .. All you are really is  " I can't experience it when I'm not experiencing it."  wow such brilliance lol

. Does it stand there when you are not experiencing it is a totally different thing.  

Edited October 22, 2020 by Someone here

[Rilles]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I can't experience it when I'm not experiencing it."  wow such brilliance lol

Isnt this important to you? Your entire life is built upon thoughts about things that dont exist in your direct experience. Scenarious about things that will happen tommorrow and regrets about the past. Being able to see actuality is what consciousness work is about isnt it? 

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Isnt this important to you? Your entire life is built upon thoughts about things that dont exist in your direct experience. Scenarious about things that will happen tommorrow and regrets about the past. Being able to see actuality is what consciousness work is about isnt it? 

Why do you think these thoughts arise?  They match your direct experience. Because your direct experience can't give you access to what is not in your direct experience. Namely the past.. The future.. Your bank account.. The back of your head. 

You don't have conscious control over your direct experience. You have no clue why it's here. If it's a figment of your consciousness.. Go ahead and will the fridge out of existence. Ofcourse all that isn't conclusive but if you can't see why there is no link between what your direct experience tells you about what is supposed to be outside of it. Then you need to use your mind a bit harder. 

[Rilles]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Why do you think these thoughts arise?  They match your direct experience. Because your direct experience can't give you access to what is not in your direct experience. Namely the past.. The future.. Your bank account.. The back of your head. 

The problem is they dont... Thoughts are they main cause of your misery, they skew reality tremendously, why do you think people believe in conspiracy theories? Because they align with reality? Give me a break. Being able to see how thoughts trick you is number one in this work. 

Thoughts give you a ballpark idea of reality to be able to help you survive. They are important, but we give them 98% of importantace which causes us suffering. 

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Go ahead and will the fridge out of existence.

? youre putting words in my mouth. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Rilles

[Shin]

Don't forget that the way you experience life now is not obvious or even considered as an option for some people.

For the op, monkey mind doesn't exist, it is the truth and everything is seen through that lens right now.

So telling him to just sit and be conscious of his direct experience, to see that everything is and can only be in his direct experience isn't gonna work.

That's one of the reason so many spiritual guide use koans or metaphor that makes zero sense, it is done in order to open the mind.

They don't tell you to do some hardcore comtemplation work, because they know 99,99% of people can't do it, they aren't in the correct perspective to be able to do that.

Watch again the ego developement video series ?

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

Don't forget that the way you experience life now is not obvious or even considered as an option for some people.

For the op, monkey mind doesn't exist, it is the truth and everything is seen through that lens right now.

So telling him to just sit and be conscious of his direct experience, to see that everything is and can only be in his direct experience isn't gonna work.

That's one of the reason so many spiritual guide use koans or metaphor that makes zero sense, it is done in order to open the mind.

They don't tell you to do some hardcore comtemplation work, because they know 99,99% of people can't do it, they aren't in the correct perspective to be able to do that.

Watch again the ego developement video series ?

True... ?? thanks master Shin.  

[Someone here]

Without that monkey in your head  you will die son... So don't pretend that you don't have a monkey in your head.. You have plenty of them. Otherwise we wouldn't be hearing from you. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Someone here

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Without that monkey in your head will die son... So don't pretend that you don't have a monkey in your head.. You have plenty of them. Otherwise we wouldn't be hearing from you. 

Noone said the monkey is bad, Im way past the good/bad dichotomy... but... do you want to sail the Atlantic with a drunk skipper or a sober captain.  Row row row your boat... 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Rilles

[ItO]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not a conclusion. It's awakening.

You will not get it before awakening.

So what is the point of talking about it here, or making videos trying to explain how to get there, using words and metaphors and pointers to the moon? I think the point is to try to make an awakening happen. If it's not possible, who are you providing all this information and inspiration with? The woke are already there.

What is the use of all the explaining, pointing etc., if it's ultimately not true? is it because somehow it helps some people to get more conscious? How does that work? why does it work for someone but not for another? It's certainly not the content of what's being said that's the key thing.

 

4 hours ago, Rilles said:

Ugh, too much monkeying in your mind, go to your fridge and find the "boundary" between your consciousness and that fridge, do that for a 100 hours. 

There isn't one. I completely see that there could be nothing more than my consciousness, for me. Beyond that I'm not really qualified to say, that's the problem.

 

3 hours ago, Rilles said:

Isnt this important to you? Your entire life is built upon thoughts about things that dont exist in your direct experience. Scenarious about things that will happen tommorrow and regrets about the past. Being able to see actuality is what consciousness work is about isnt it? 

All of this consciousness work pulled me out of my years of suicidal depression, so I'm familiar with the benefits of using direct experience and realizing how I'm deceiving myself and making all of my problems, and I'm forever grateful for stumbling upon this possibility. 

But now I'm interested in truth for the sake of it, and if there's something "behind" my experience I'd like to know that, even though it's not practically important to me or may be inconvenient and scary.

 

I've never seen the point that me and @Someone here are making ever been addressed properly in this forum. Try not to dismiss it so fast.

Thank you!

[seeking_brilliance]

Manifest as a higher vibrational being if you want to explore the higher realms. Likewise, perhaps there's an experience of the fridge that's completely hellish. 

[Shin]

5 minutes ago, ItO said:

So what is the point of talking about it here, or making videos trying to explain how to get there, using words and metaphors and pointers to the moon? I think the point is to try to make an awakening happen. If it's not possible, who are you providing all this information and inspiration with? The woke are already there.

What is the use of all the explaining, pointing etc., if it's ultimately not true? is it because somehow it helps some people to get more conscious? How does that work? why does it work for someone but not for another? It's certainly not the content of what's being said that's the key thing.

 

Do you  consider google map as useless when you want to travel ?

If you want to go somewhere by using google map, you can't just look at the screen though, you actually have to walk to the direction it points to.