A question to Leo

[Mu_]

5 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Bud, he has a clearer understanding than 'you'.

“The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge.” - Daniel J. Boorstin

You have built up this illusory concept that you are in some way a reliable source on these subjects...

All you have done is adopted someone else's beliefs, identified with the thought that these are the end-all-be-all (TRUTH). 

All I'm saying is intellectually understanding and agreeing with someone else's belief's and getting your name put in green as a moderator on a forum does not mean you automatically understand non-duality and what Awakening actually is..... you are simply not a reliable source in these areas whether you believe you are or not....

I'm guessing you are in your mid-to-late forties or early fifties and are completely stuck in your belief system.(you grasp tightly to keep them intact)

It takes someone to be completely selfless to recognize they may actually not be helping but confusing the situation worse.

Someone that is not awake should not be attempting to guide individuals on this section of the forum period.

 

 

 

Is there any more of a reason to listen to a random non-green guy on the internet who gets drunk and does stupid shit from time to time, claiming no one knows and can never know and no ones there to begin, yet makes such claims of knowing something, but then defends no ones here doing that..... lol let that in for a moment, its kinda hilarious even if is true (who knows right), it would make a great comedy which only a few in the audience would be able to appreciate the humor of since almost of this stuff is very obscure to the general population.  Anywas, love ya, but come on man, this is rather disrespectful just on a basic human to human level.

[Nahm]

21 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Bud, he has a clearer understanding than 'you'.

“The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge.” - Daniel J. Boorstin

You have built up this illusory concept that you are in some way a reliable source on these subjects...

All you have done is adopted someone else's beliefs, identified with the thought that these are the end-all-be-all (TRUTH). 

All I'm saying is intellectually understanding and agreeing with someone else's belief's and getting your name put in green as a moderator on a forum does not mean you automatically understand non-duality and what Awakening actually is..... you are simply not a reliable source in these areas whether you believe you are or not....

I'm guessing you are in your mid-to-late forties or early fifties and are completely stuck in your belief system.(you grasp tightly to keep them intact)

It takes someone to be completely selfless to recognize they may actually not be helping but confusing the situation worse.

Someone that is not awake should not be attempting to guide individuals on this section of the forum period.

“Bud” ? 

There really are no individuals my man. It’s actual. There is no ‘he’ which has a clearer understanding than ‘you’, and ‘you’ are not the individual ‘knower’ of who among ‘other individuals’ has a clearer understanding. 

There is likewise, not actually an individual, which believes itself to be a reliable source. You - are saying that, and that you are, and that there isn’t that ‘you’, is totally between you and your source, so to speak. Nor is there anyone else’s beliefs at play here - literally just your own. That is textbook projection - telling someone else what they believe. lol. Come on man. This is fundamental deconstruction. 

The agreeing & being a moderator verbiage only reveals your own perspectives about that subject - you are saying that. There is no & no one understanding nonduality my man, it means not-two (as you know, just a point of relevance to what you said - about ‘me’).

“You are not a reliable course in these areas whether you believe you are or not” - again, come on dude. You can’t see that’s all what you are saying? All projection? There isn’t actually an individual ‘here’ ‘stuck in a belief system’, that is the whole ‘thing’ you’re missing! Nonduality! ?

”It takes someone to be completely selfless...”  that there is not a ‘separate self’ ‘in the body’ is actual. This nonduality ‘stuff’ is actual! 

“Someone that is not awake should not be attempting to guide individuals on this section of the forum period” I mean, really?! You might be having an ‘off day’ or something, but come on. Are you even reading what you’re writing? 

I wish you only the best. If we were sitting together, I’d be the first to open a beer for ya and tell you I love ya, and appreciate all you do. You also can feel free to make whatever accusations about me you desire to, and I hope it is some form of relief. 

 

[The0Self]

28 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Someone that is not awake should not be attempting to guide individuals on this section of the forum period.

There isn't someone.

Nobody knows they’re awake.

There are no individuals to guide, and there’s nowhere to guide them to.

It’s the joke that nobody gets: there’s nothing to get.

Edited October 21, 2020 by The0Self

[Dodo]

@Nahm im not accusing you, I don't know who you are. I am accusing the projection I have of you. Why I see your projection as inauthentic is perhaps because there is still inauthenticity in me. 

To me it seems that you are not enlightened. I have seen a vision. I am not to judge who is what, but thats the only way I know to help.

Going against the grain, if you believe you have arrived. For me, to trully know Love means you trully know you will never arrive. 

The flame never stops burning. Me being an infinite being is beyond the point. There is something bigger than this. If you claim, like Leo, that your mother does not exist when outsife of awareness,  that's just the Ivory tower of empty truth. Can't defeat emptiness, but the Love will always be one step ahead of it.

[commie]

Since no other person wants to provide a straightforward answer...

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

We were just projections of your own mind.... It must follow that there is no point talking with mere images in your mind. To a dream characters. Watch the video. This is only resolved if you accept the existence of a second layer of reality. If you don't it's straightforward solipsism. 

I didn't watch the video. This "second layer" idea is indeed a solution, and it should be distinguished from dualism. As I mentioned earlier, the mainstream physicalist account of your experience has "layers" even though it is monist. This account is useful to explore the tension between "layers" and non-dualism because it is much more developed than the idealist account.

But, as has been hinted at earlier, there is another obvious alternative to solipsism hinging on how "you" is understood. You might say this is just another kind of "layer" theory but parts of "you" could in principle be functionally independent enough from each other that they might sometimes (when they're kind of sleeping we might say) communicate in a non-solipsistic way. Note that if you were to require full independence for communication to be non-solipsistic, you'd run into problems such as: how might fully independent entities acquire a common language? By the way...

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

for this communication to make sense.. me and you are assuming that on the other side there is a sentient being receiving the message... And my sentience is independent from your sentience.

Strictly speaking, you can and do make sense when you're talking to yourself (that is, when there's not even an illusion of independence).

[Nahm]

7 minutes ago, Dodo said:

@Nahm im not accusing you, I don't know who you are. I am accusing the projection I have of you. Why I see your projection as inauthentic is perhaps because there is still inauthenticity in me. 

To me it seems that you are not enlightened. I have seen a vision. I am not to judge who is what, but thats the only way I know to help.

Going against the grain, if you believe you have arrived. For me, to trully know Love means you trully know you will never arrive. 

The flame never stops burning. Me being an infinite being is beyond the point. There is something bigger than this. If you claim, like Leo, that your mother does not exist when outsife of awareness,  that's just the Ivory tower of empty truth. Can't defeat emptiness, but the Love will always be one step ahead of it.

Well, appreciated, but you are accusing me of some dark & ill intended motives, and saying really nasty stuff about me as of late. I ‘get it’, and I don’t mind at all. I’m actually happy for you. Some ‘sections of the path’ are lovely, and some are a bit frustrating, or rather, releasing. Just an opinion / suggestion, but let the deducing of if someone else is enlightened or not go. That already misses the point and just makes for backtracking & more undoing, and it’s really the heart of judgement, or perhaps the apparent absence of. 

Judgement is a real bitch man. It’s so ‘deep down in there’ so to speak for us all. It’s the ‘human condition’, the ‘situation’ we find ourselves in. But (again just one opinion here) this is transcend-able, in the sense / direction (as I recognize you obviously ‘know’) of ‘returning home’ (vs more concepts). “I” do not ‘believe I have arrived’. It is just linguistically subject object / noun verb, and it is just clear ‘who’ I really am, and also that just saying it directly is least helpful or useful, logical or even sensical.

Yes, agreed & beautiful btw. There is no me and nowhere to go or arrive indeed. ?

If there is something to be said on Leo’s behalf or perspectives, it is probably best said, to Leo. Let’s not lump us ‘who’s’ together. That won’t work either, as we already are.  

[Nahm]

25 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Identification with conditioned thoughts should not be attempting to guide identification with conditioned thoughts on this section of the forum period.

Still talking about an apparent me. 

You’ve made mention more than once that I am trying to ‘discredit you’ in some way. I think a certain out pouring of that is present today as a projection onto me, in that I am not fit to help any one etc. I wonder if you realize this is just ‘your’...just one, opinion, of ‘someone else’ who truly does not exist as the individual you are painting. In consideration of direct experience, as more substantial than opinion, you don’t actually know the first thing about the reiki sessions ‘I ‘do’ & what transpires, nor of the Skype & Zoom sessions ‘I’ ‘do’ & what transpires. In regard to this thread and or forum, you’ve expressed nothing of actual substance on my behalf, only projection via discrediting & accusation (though the quotes you paste are quite insightful). If you are interested in opinions, surely you have noticed, though I try not to ‘billboard it’, that there are people if you will, which have had this direct experience and are present on the forum. You could ask them their opinion if you’re interest in ‘me’ and what ‘I’m doing’ persists. I don’t mind at all, and trust they wouldn’t either. 

Getting back to the accusation you expressed on my behalf, and the ‘discrediting’ lens, you could consider that it is as least a possibility that what is occurring is the counterintuitive paradoxical opposite, and that it really truly actually has nothing at all to do what what or who you think I am, and maybe has to do with a certain calling & interest on your behalf to do something similar to what I’m doing, so to speak. 

 

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It's not a personal accusation... exactly!!

Awakening has simply not occurred there, and with Mu either.

What's not being recognized is "you both"(as in energy identifying with conditioned thoughts) are potentially misleading "others"(as in energy identifying with conditioned thoughts) into even more identification with conditioned thinking.... so in that sense you're actually not helping anyone to awaken... it's actually hindering and misleading. ❤

It's a selfless recognition!!

 

Yet again, no worries man. There isn’t actually a ‘problem’, surely you notice the discrepancy. You’re saying ‘it’s not personal’...and yet articulating a view that is a verbal finger pointing (and also actually naming Mu) that there are individuals. You’re clearly using the semantics of “awakening has simply not occurred “there” as a sort of ‘fill-in’ to mask yourself from the seeing of what you yourself are actually saying about someone else, ‘relative’ to you. 

It is possible that you genuinely don’t know or don’t recognize that you are not offering anything constructive or of substance conversationally speaking, but are projecting onto ‘individuals’ and making accusations against ‘them’. What you are expressing amounts only to your opinion.

If you are interested in seeing this, this here is about as good of an example as any...

“All you have done is adopted someone else's beliefs, identified with the thought that these are the end-all-be-all (TRUTH).”

These thoughts, or, perspectives are actually occurring to ‘you’. Indicative of the op, ‘you’ don’t actually have a clue what anyone else is or isn’t believing, is or isn’t identified with. Again, notice the direct experience if you will. These are your beliefs, your thoughts, your perspectives...about someone else. There is no ‘true thought’, or ‘righteous / true perspective’. So to speak, each of us is in the position to ‘buy into’ these arising thoughts and accuse, or not. What you’re saying has literally nothing to do with that which you believe you are saying it about. If you have something to express about a topic, something to contribute or rebuke, you are totally free to do so. But you are not, at least presently. You’re attacking & insinuating on the level of reputation perhaps, or character. 

[mandyjw]

@VeganAwake Nahm played a part in my awakening and was a complete life line after it when it came to the understanding part. I did not seek him out, it just plain happened that way before he started offering sessions. Still just assumed he was a lady back then.  If anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer them.

Sometimes I think we get all muddled up because we want to plot how we're doing on a map or know what level we're on. We think over and over in our heads, "Is this adventure over already FOR FUCKS SAKES?" But the whole point IS that this is an adventure, it's sheer freedom, exploration and the key ingredient of adventure is that we don't know what will happen next. We don't know what we are, where we are. It's way stranger (and more wonderful) than we could ever imagine. And you've got friends you never knew you had, who love you more than you'll ever know. 

 

[Dodo]

47 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Well, appreciated, but you are accusing me of some dark & ill intended motives, and saying really nasty stuff about me as of late. I ‘get it’, and I don’t mind at all. I’m actually happy for you. Some ‘sections of the path’ are lovely, and some are a bit frustrating, or rather, releasing. Just an opinion / suggestion, but let the deducing of if someone else is enlightened or not go. That already misses the point and just makes for backtracking & more undoing, and it’s really the heart of judgement, or perhaps the apparent absence of. 

Judgement is a real bitch man. It’s so ‘deep down in there’ so to speak for us all. It’s the ‘human condition’, the ‘situation’ we find ourselves in. But (again just one opinion here) this is transcend-able, in the sense / direction (as I recognize you obviously ‘know’) of ‘returning home’ (vs more concepts). “I” do not ‘believe I have arrived’. It is just linguistically subject object / noun verb, and it is just clear ‘who’ I really am, and also that just saying it directly is least helpful or useful, logical or even sensical.

Yes, agreed & beautiful btw. There is no me and nowhere to go or arrive indeed. ?

If there is something to be said on Leo’s behalf or perspectives, it is probably best said, to Leo. Let’s not lump us ‘who’s’ together. That won’t work either, as we already are.  

I have said to Leo what I needed to say to him. There exists a not knowing which is beyond the knowing. Leo's mind is so brilliant, its hardest to escape from a prison that is 10000 feet in each direction than from a tiny one like mine. I also know what I have seen and my words are not empty of meaning, like some "enlightenment" exercises brainwash us - washing of brain is good to a degree. That's why I said 

Are you open to the possibility that there exists a story which is more true than infinite being itself? A sequence of projections which are actually so True that they transcend eternity? Like a guy called Nahm or Dodo or Leo that is more Truth than the Truth of his eternal non-leo-nahm-dodo nature? Sounds egoic, but thats only if the Nahm/Dodo/Leo is egoic. 

<3 

idk man Om Ah Om! Lets be! I dont wish to say you are dark, I told you I am not accusing you. Every time I talk to you, please assume and know that I am talking to my projection of you. I can truly never know who you are, only you can know that. Im not saying that just like that, it is a hard fact I will never know who you are. I leave God to God and Trees to Trees. Dodos to Dodos and Nahms to Nahms. <3 Kumbayah 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dodo

[Nahm]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I have said to Leo what I needed to say to him. There exists a not knowing which is beyond the knowing. Leo's mind is so brilliant, its hardest to escape from a prison that is 10000 feet in each direction than from a tiny one like mine. I also know what I have seen and my words are not empty of meaning, like some "enlightenment" exercises brainwash us - washing of brain is good to a degree. That's why I said 

I was just referring to this comment below. 

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

If you claim, like Leo, that your mother does not exist when outsife of awareness,  that's just the Ivory tower of empty truth. Can't defeat emptiness, but the Love will always be one step ahead of it.

 

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Are you open to the possibility that there exists a story which is more true than infinite being itself? A sequence of projections which are actually so True that they transcend eternity? Like a guy called Nahm or Dodo or Leo that is more Truth than the Truth of his eternal non-leo-nahm-dodo nature? Sounds egoic, but thats only if the Nahm/Dodo/Leo is egoic. 

Well, I wouldn’t say I’m not open to the possibility, only that it would still be me. 

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

<3 

idk man Om Ah Om! Lets be! I dont wish to say you are dark, I told you I am not accusing you. Every time I talk to you, please assume and know that I am talking to my projection of you. I can truly never know who you are, only you can know that. Im not saying that just like that, it is a hard fact I will never know who you are. I leave God to God and Trees to Trees. Dodos to Dodos and Nahms to Nahms. <3 Kumbayah 

Fair enough, and yes, I know. Also...maybe...it doesn’t need to be typed on a forum though. 

[VeganAwake]

24 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@VeganAwake Nahm played a part in my awakening and was a complete life line after it when it came to the understanding part. I did not seek him out, it just plain happened that way before he started offering sessions. Still just assumed he was a lady back then.  If anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer them.

Sometimes I think we get all muddled up because we want to plot how we're doing on a map or know what level we're on. We think over and over in our heads, "Is this adventure over already FOR FUCKS SAKES?" But the whole point IS that this is an adventure, it's sheer freedom, exploration and the key ingredient of adventure is that we don't know what will happen next. We don't know what we are, where we are. It's way stranger (and more wonderful) than we could ever imagine. And you've got friends you never knew you had, who love you more than you'll ever know. 

 

Love that ❤ ?

[allislove]

@VeganAwake

❤️

 

[Nahm]

23 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

@Nahm it's okay bud, you simply don't get it and that's fine ❤

There’s not something for a me to get. ‘That’d’ still be me. 

Quote

Egoic love is a sneaky wolf in sheep's clothing. It's sneaky in the sense that it appears to be selfless but underneath the mask is hidden the clever egoic agenda that imbues meaning purpose and value as its top priority to satisfy its constant specialness requirement.

Yet again, “egoic love” is your construct, your offering - you’re saying this, not anyone else. You’re are again using semantics of seemingly non-individual implication and still missing that you are saying it, to a ‘me’. If there is such a thing or event or experience as ‘satisfying it’s specialness requirement’, it (evidenced plainly by that you are saying it) is coming from you. Had you asked, rather than accused / implied, I’d have said “egoic love” is a sort of misnomer / misunderstanding. But again, you aren’t really looking to contributing, nor are you asking and leaving room for reply, just making accusations and still projecting. Kind of a ‘dead horse’ at this point imo.  

Quote

And the very last thing it wants to hear is that 'nothing really matters'. This leaves the ego without a leg to stand on sorta speak.

“It” is not actually an “it”. “It” is just a passing perspective about ‘Nahm’. 

Nothing really matters indeed!  

Quote

It's the spiritual ego and it's a tough cookie to crumble if you take it head-on...

I disagree. I think an approach of ‘taking it head on’ would be indicative of more of the same suffering that leads you to believe there is something to fight, or some adversary or spiritual ego that could be taken head on. I think if one takes ownership of their attitude, their intentions, what they say, and inspects & understandings any feelings in experience, it is not hard or tough to ‘crumble the cookie’. In a way that cookie is always just crumbling itself, and to make an adversary of it is futile. 

Quote

Awakening is snapping out of the Mind Matrix and disentangling from these conditioned beliefs and patterns. It's the complete dissolving of the sense of self within the body that believes its life is Meaningful purposeful and valuable.

That is interesting. Were I to attempt to define myself, I don’t think I would have limited to that. Idk though. 

Quote

If there is any kind of Drive or feeling that something needs to be done, this is the ego re-inflating itself to once again rain.

❤

I think you mean reign, but otherwise I agree. Inspiration is divine. 

[Dodo]

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

I was just referring to this comment below. 

 

Well, I wouldn’t say I’m not open to the possibility, only that it would still be me. 

Fair enough, and yes, I know. Also...maybe...it doesn’t need to be typed on a forum though. 

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't! Oh well. Stuff gets deep when knowing clashes with not knowing. Both are true and neither. Mindfuck galore. Those shouldn't clash, they should merge and dance. We doing it all wrong bro and its all so silly. 

But any time I smell someone who think they know,   I will anchor not knowing, and if I see someone who think they don't know, will anchor knowing. Its a balancing act and I'm just learning . For if you push too much with the knowing, you become arrogant in your truth and that's not truth. And you keep saying there is no you and in the next sentence defend  yourself from (be it unjust) criticisms etc its kinda weird too, no?! After all are you Nahm or are you the eternal? There seems to be still something. And I just want that something to be honest in its not knowing a bit more, because I just don't see it. Again, projecting! But hey, maybe we don't need people to confirm what we know all the time, not like you will lose the truth. 

 

About the Leo statement: 

Let me ask you something, since Leo in his recent video on the nature of reality claimed that for a fact "There is no other part to the fridge, only the image in awareness" "What other part of the fridge" etc... Now this is a common view, also Rupert Spira talks about this as a "new map of reality" " new way of seeing the world" which is more inline with direct experience, its like the religion of direct experience. But this is such a sneaky and transparent belief system that you dont even see that you are ASSUMING that there is nothing there. Its a blatant assumption. And everyone in the video comments was buying it and I was buying it for so long too! It's not Truth! If that's the truth of 5meo then LOL !!! The Assumption is that since you never will know if there is something outside of awareness, that you can just push it out as irrelevant and something that anyone who believes otherwise has simply not gone deep enough etc etc. What a bunch of fools I tellya!

Those damnnnnnn materialists, assuming there is something outside of consciousness when they have never seen anything outside of consciousness

Daaamn Those Direct Experiencists, assuming there is nothing outside of consciousness when they are never going to be able to have a direct experience of anything outside of consciousness to confirm whether its true or false.

Can we leave it more like this in our minds: Outside of consciousness is something we will never know, so we should not assume neither Something NOR NOTHING. Leave it as the question mark. ??? That question mark is what im talking about, it looks like a small thing, but its really the possibility to radically know not knowing and to allow there to be a question mark there. It's the filling of the question mark that makes us inauthentic and untrue. IMO

Edited October 21, 2020 by Dodo

[mandyjw]

A lot of the heart emojis used here feel just like the smiles you get from people when you wear a skirt that's too short to a Baptist church service. 

[Frenk]

@mandyjw yeah , i see it as a ? instead of ❤️ 

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, commie said:

Note that if you were to require full independence for communication to be non-solipsistic, you'd run into problems such as: how might fully independent entities acquire a common language?

What does your ability to understand my words have to do with whether we are dependent on each other or not for our existence? 

The key point is this.. The fact that appearances disappear immediately with the disappearance of one's consciousness has absolutely nothing to to do with whether these appearance have a deeper layer of existence.

" Just because I don't see it when I don't see it.. That means it's only there when I see it" ?. there Is absolutely nothing in this logical building that is conclusive. Or valid. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Someone here

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What does your ability to understand my words have to do with whether we are dependent on each other or not for our existence? 

The key point is this.. The fact that appearances disappear immediately with the disappearance of one's consciousness has absolutely nothing to to do with whether these appearance have a deeper layer of existence.

" Just because I don't see it when I don't see it.. That means it's only there when I see it" ?. there Is absolutely nothing in this logical building that is conclusive. Or valid. 

wokeaf others drink the milk, its only a map of reality that seems more correct to someone! Its not truth <3 hehe how do we map love?

[commie]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What does your ability to understand my words have to do with whether we are dependent on each other or not for our existence?

I wasn't talking about being dependent on each other but about being dependent on something larger than either of us.

What does "existence" mean in this context anyway?

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

The key point is this.. The fact that appearances disappear immediately with the disappearance of one's consciousness has absolutely nothing to to do with whether these appearance have a deeper layer of existence.

Obviously the whole point of the "deeper layer" is that it is somehow separate from appearance but what does "existence" mean in this other context?