A question to Leo

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

I disagree with the myth that being or God or reality is consciousness.

Try as hard as you want to deny that your direct experience is reality. The fact of its “isness” or “being” is the fact of its reality. It’s not a myth that reality is consciousness, it’s quite literally what you’re directly experiencing right now. To deny this is asinine. 

If you want to believe there’s a 2nd layer underneath your direct experience, aka the consciousness you THINK is a myth (your mind projecting on top of your direct conscious experience), s’all good. However at least recognize it’s a more convoluted belief system that requires extra mind baggage that careful, objective, direct study of experience and reality does not need. In fact, if you studied your direct experience long enough you’d notice all sensory perception has no solidity to it at all, it’s just a fluid, spacious, fluctuating field of is-ness popping into and out of a void; the “objective” reality science thinks is out there is quite literally impossible if they knew what they were actually studying, which is perception. The thoughts that think there’s a 2nd layer are also popping into and out of this void. But Im guessing you haven't meditated long enough to perceive this resolution of direct experience/reality/consciousness/perception. It required an extremely stable, mindful concentration of what is really happening vs what your mind thinks is happening. 

[Consilience]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There is the appearance of consistency - it seems like this is the part that is tripping you up...you mentioned it in a few other posts.  Such as when you look away from the moon and then look back it is still in the same spot.  But don't let that trip ya up into thinking there is a physical layer somewhere.  That's the work of an Infinite Mind.  

Well that and it’s literally not consistent. Just because the mind constructs the consistency, it’s actually a different moon. The light, rotation and position have all changed. Moment by moment, some facet of direct experience has changed. Even the fridge is not the same fridge while staring at it moment by moment. Whether one’s level of consciousness is capable of observing the fluctuations in perception and see through the illusion of consistency is a different matter.

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Consilience said:

Well that and it’s literally not consistent. Just because the mind constructs the consistency, it’s actually a different moon. The light, rotation and position have all changed. Moment by moment, some facet of direct experience has changed. Even the fridge is not the same fridge while staring at it moment by moment. Whether one’s level of consciousness is capable of observing the fluctuations in perception and see through the illusion of consistency is a different matter.

Very true

 

[The0Self]

The appearance is there but isn’t there. Would you know if you weren’t there? You’d probably agree that you would not. I’m gonna just come out and say you aren’t there now. And, oh yeah, you don’t know it. Hmm. It’s not even that there’s nothing you can do, it’s actually worse and it’s not even the same (in the story): there is no you.

Edited October 20, 2020 by The0Self

[An young being]

What you guys say is that life is designed like a video game, where the CPU processes only what the characters are looking. What I say is that the whole universe is awareness and not linked to individual's consciousness. Each atom is aware of another atom once it comes into its field of awareness, no matter if it had sensory perception or not.

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

And what if you discovered there was no you - but that you are an idea?

And what if after discovering that there is no me, years later I discovered that there is me? What if "me" is an idea only from a perception standpoint? Wouldn't that make it a relative fact to that particular standpoint? After all, I am here. I exist. How can I say that I don't? Just because I can't (currently) perceive something (myself) does not necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Maybe I will be able to perceive myself in the future. Maybe I'll discover some other tool than perception and thought.

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@Gesundheit

Everything is consciousness. Nothing is outside of it. 

Is this hard to understand? 

Consciousness is infinite. 

Logically speaking, when something is called infinite, you need to understand that there is absolutely nothing outside of it. 

You can't speculate that there is something outside of 'it' when you have accepted that 'it' is infinite. 

 

This is basic understanding right? 

Right.

[Mu_]

@Gesundheit I know what you mean and its a good a  stance as any.  However when I was using the word "consciousness" I wasn't talking about something in particular with an exact definition, more so a pointing towards something that is fundamental, no matter what the exactness of what that may be.

Kinda like what ever is, IS, even if you don't know the possible timeline (or if that even exists), how it dresses, what it does on its own, how it looks, if its a nothing or a something (what ever that may or may not mean or qualifies within those parameters), if its Love or Hate (what ever that may or may not mean or if it qualifies within those parameters), wether its infinite and goes on to infinities or stops at some point and no longer goes out and you arrive at an Eternal (or neither) or if IS falls within  a Dream like Magicalness with no fundamental linearities in which logical or language could formulate something cohesive about it,

No matter what is, IS!  This, right, now, reading, comprehending, thinking, wondering, disagreeing, or agreeing, these, words, IS.  What ever that may be.  Again even if you can't put a definition on or quantify or qualify in exactness, IS.  What else could there be?

[The0Self]

32 minutes ago, An young being said:

What you guys say is that life is designed like a video game, where the CPU processes only what the characters are looking. What I say is that the whole universe is awareness and not linked to individual's consciousness. Each atom is aware of another atom once it comes into its field of awareness, no matter if it had sensory perception or not.

It’s more meaningless than that than you could ever possibly imagine. Like 1 trillion times more meaningless wouldn’t even scratch the surface of the nothing that is.

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Try as hard as you want to deny that your direct experience is reality.

I will, of course, that's my devotion. Nothing shall escape my microscope.

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

The fact of its “isness” or “being” is the fact of its reality. It’s not a myth that reality is consciousness, it’s quite literally what you’re directly experiencing right now. To deny this is asinine.

So now we're talking facts? Okay, but how about you stick to your facts and I stick to mine? You don't see me so I don't exist. I don't see you but I believe you exist. To talk to someone you don't believe exists is asinine. No? Being true to your facts should make you almost paralyzed. Although, to me, it doesn't seem to be the case at all.

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

If you want to believe there’s a 2nd layer underneath your direct experience, aka the consciousness you THINK is a myth (your mind projecting on top of your direct conscious experience), s’all good.

Maybe it's not me who wants to believe in a second layer. Maybe it's you who's denying anything your current paradigm.

You're undermining thought as if carries no truth whatsoever, and yet you're using thought to tell me what's true and what's not. You will say: but I'm pointing you to your direct experience. Discard the pointer and look at what it's pointing to. And my reply will be: yeah, but that would require a leap of faith on my part to trust your pointer and give it value. After all, what if you're deluded? What if you pointing me to my direct experience is nothing but a delusion? You see, I don't take these things for granted anymore.

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

However at least recognize it’s a more convoluted belief system that requires extra mind baggage that careful, objective, direct study of experience and reality does not need. In fact, if you studied your direct experience long enough you’d notice all sensory perception has no solidity to it at all, it’s just a fluid, spacious, fluctuating field of is-ness popping into and out of a void; the “objective” reality science thinks is out there is quite literally impossible if they knew what they were actually studying, which is perception. The thoughts that think there’s a 2nd layer are also popping into and out of this void.

You're assuming that perception is the ground layer of reality, or raw reality. Is this assumption true or false?

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

But Im guessing you haven't meditated long enough to perceive this resolution of direct experience/reality/consciousness/perception. It required an extremely stable, mindful concentration of what is really happening vs what your mind thinks is happening. 

Yeah, poor me.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Gesundheit]

23 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

@Gesundheit 

 

What else could there be?

Else.

[The0Self]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Else.

That’s what is. As is everything. So there isn’t anything else.

[Mu_]

18 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Else.

Exactly and how else could else not be happening?  If not, what exactly are you saying or denying?

[Nahm]

Mr. Snuffleupagus normally plays a jem77p, but yesterday it rained. 

[Adamq8]

From my own understanding/direct experience in deep meditation and psychedelics trips it has shown me everytime that what you call the world or appearances is happening inside a void, the void is all that there is, which is nothing at all but anyway it exists and it brings This to life. But when you are in altered states you can CLEARLY see that life death people houses cars, spirituality religion science and all of it, is included in this "dream" but it is not the True Reality. 

It is almost like conciousness and reality is not existing at all cause it is impossible but here it is, and without consciousness you would not even have 1 experience of anything at all. 

So I would say that whatever layer or stuff behind the scene you think is there, is there cause you created it. 

Everytime that I tripped and had a profound meditation experience it has been a slight bit of terror cause I then recognized that your awareness is prior to everything, it holds everything else , so it is nothing but it is aware and it can't really understand it self so it creates different storys to make it cope and stay sane lol.

Conciousness can not not exist. Even if death would be like deep sleep conciousness do still exist. It is a state of conciousness. And this limited state of a human is absolutely perfect. And YOU have to believe in it otherwise the game would be ruined. You made yourself forget about what you are. So you can experience pain suffering love relationships and what not. 

But even saying these things does not do it justice at all, cause it is prior to everything.  Lets call it being. Thats the best word for it.

Your point of view is like a scenery happening in the void, like a movie screen. 

If you really stop multiple times a day to just watch reality without any assumptions and labels unto it, you will quickly realize the profoundness that reality is, it is utterly mysterious. And it just IS. Appearances.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Doesn't that prove there is a second layer?

Obviously it does not. It proves there is a disappearance and reappearance.

The claim is not that something disappears when you close your eyes.

The claim is that it disappears and reappears precisely however many times you close and open your eyes.

You are being dumb in how you're thinking about this whole thing. Stop trying to simplify reality. Reality is precisely how it appears. In your lifetime, the moon will appear and disappear something like 10,000 times. That is exactly what's true. Not that there is one moon. There are 10,000 different moons. And if you live a little longer, there will a few more moons. And if you die tomorrow, they will be a lot less.

Reality dynamically adjusts to create the present moment however it is, exactly as it is. Obviously! Any simplification you make of it will be wrong.

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

If not, what exactly are you saying?

Trying to go meta on existence by dissecting it into thought and perception, and whatever else it could be.

[SpYITB]

The truth is, no one knows anything. Even Leo and the most hard-core psychedelics users say themselves: "there are infinite levels of awakening left, no matter how deep you have already awakened". AKA I know nothing.

[Member]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura these just innocent questions.. Lol 

1- if it's from your pov that nothing is outside of consciousness.. Who are you talking to? Your audience.. There is no one at other side of the camera hearing you according to your pov!  And if from my pov.. Why am I talking to you if you are just an image in my mind?. I assume that based on how I understand your pov. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

2- seriously how can someone not be conscious of the Truth?  What am I conscious of right now then?  What is this if it's not the Truth?.  Please explain that without just dismissing it as neo-advaita nonsense.  Actually show me how is this view "false". I feel like im about to have a breakthrough and major insights if I could put some pieces together. 

1. The point of view seen from an absolute perspective is not held within the ego. The ego just distorts reality and limits it to a finite point of view which is the human that you're embodying right now. You are actually the entire audience, not only the person speaking to it. The audience and the human you're representing is held within the absolute consciousness which is true no matter what form it takes.

2. When you think that reality has two layers like "you" and "reality", then this is not the Truth because you're divorced from the absolute POV (it's like would would suffer from split personality and think that you're talking with some ghosts but the ghosts are actually YOU). For this reason, awakening and ultimately enlightenment is necessary.

[SoonHei]

@Someone here layer of appearance as singular.

H20 being ice

H20 being water

H20 being steam

 

Always looking at the ice,water,steam and that is looking at h20 also at the same time.

 

1 layer.

 

Or. Watching tv. Whatsoever appears on it, it's all appearing on 1 layer of screen. A fridge on the tv - sure there can be more behind the fridge, what it is made out of etc. But as you zoom into it or whatnot, it will still be appearing on the same screen. Again, 1 layer

[Enlightenment]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, if you want to get all philosophically pedantic, it is idealism.

Have you read any of Bernardo Kastrup's books? His view is very similar to yours. Is there anything you don't agree with him?