What's the healthiest way to deal with Red?

[Fran11]

- I'm asking from a collective perspective, not an individual one.

- Consider what is healthy both for Red and also for the higher stages.

- Also consider that countries have very different proportions of Red, it's not equally problematic to have 5-10% than to have 35-45%.

[Fran11]

2 minutes ago, datamonster said:

@Fran11  Give them a purpose.

Elaborate please

[Fran11]

14 minutes ago, datamonster said:

If I remember correctly, people start moving from Red into Blue when they discover a deeper sense of meaning or mission in life. That's why religion becomes so important to Blue.

Yes, I see. Good point.

Any idea of how a goverment could acomplish or at least promote this in the XXI century?

[integral]

Don beck applied spiral dynamics in the middle east, makes sense to study his results.  

[Fran11]

14 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Once they have a roof over their heads, food in their bellies and at least some stability they might be ready to move to the next stage.

This is absolutely necessary, but not enough in my experience. 

Social programs are important because otherwise people would just starve. But for themselves, I don't see them generating the necessary oportunities and incentives to move peopl forward, people just become goverment-dependent. 

Education also plays a major role. When dealing when Red, it could be an useful tool to inculcate them with propouse like you said.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Carl-Richard]

Stage Red is unfortunately a stage that just has to exhaust itself by itself, and as a result of that exhaustion fall into Blue. The concept of "dealing with something" in a "healthy way" is not a concern that is developed before Blue, and Red will not recognize it as a valid concern at all (unless it can be co-opted by their own interests). Red doesn't deal with consequences; it deals with actions.

[Fran11]

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Stage Red is unfortunately a stage that just has to exhaust itself by itself, and as a result of that exhaustion fall into Blue.

What would be for Red to exhaust itself? 

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The concept of "dealing with something" in a "healthy way" is not a concern that is developed before Blue, and Red will not recognize it as a valid concern at all (unless it can be co-opted by their own interests). Red doesn't deal with consequences; it deals with actions.

Yes, I was asking that from the POV of the higher stages, to discuss what they can do to promote Red's transition.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

What would be for Red to exhaust itself? 

Yes, I was asking that from the POV of the higher stages, to see if what they can do to accelerate Red's transition.

That is the problem. You cant negotiate with Red. Other than providing good living conditions and education, you have very few options to make Red disappear.

[Fran11]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That is the problem. You cant negotiate with Red. Other than providing good living conditions and education, you have very few options to make Red disappear.

Yeah I know. And honestly even living conditions and education don't seem to do much unfortunately...

I was wondering if I am missing something... or the sad truth is just that we can't do much about them.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Preety_India]

 

A certain degree of Red is needed everywhere. Red has great meaning. 

A Red system is very much needed in a Blue regime, because when these regimes become corrupt and exploitative, there is nobody to hold them accountable, that's when you'll need a Red group that will use brute force to topple the corrupt system. 

A lot of blue systems are namesake blue. They don't actually care to put their constitution or laws in practice. That's when Red protects people from tyrants. 

People easily assume that Red means tyranny and violence. But violence and tyranny can also be used to protect someone. Poison against poison. 

Let's say if someone got raped and there was no justice, that's when A Red vigilante justice might be needed in a dystopian blue

 

Also Red can prevent such crimes. Like in jails if there are powerful red gangs, then some prisoners would feel scared to hurt anyone. 

In the absence of proper or accountable authority or a lazy useless authority that allows rampant injustice, red groups can bring some protection to marginalized groups. It's like a mafia that vulnerable groups by threatening the rich social groups that are exploiting the poor people. 

This gives Red a strong foundation to survive and execute their raw control but for better outcomes. 

In fact I have seen red systems in certain places that are more effective than blue in enforcing proper laws and keeping sociopathic people from hurting the masses. People feel protected. 

Rules are created in a blue system. But if there is nobody to enforce these rules, then it's a hollow useless irresponsible system that doesn't care about exploited groups. 

Tribals routinely use Red groups and systems to protect themselves from any kind of exploitation from governments or other neighbouring tribes. 

Red offers a protective roof. Especially when systems become too tyrant or unaccountable. It's like a Healthy Red fighting against Unhealthy Blue, Unhealthy Yellow, Unhealthy Green or Unhealthy Orange..

Certain people or authorities don't have the spine to go against or do something to the evil doers. That's when Red steps in and takes matters in its hands. RED has enough spine to go against the bad guys and take care of them. It's like Robinhood. 

So red should not disappear completely. It should always lurk in the shadows waiting to be called when needed to bring change through violence and control where other methods to tackle evil have failed. 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Preety_India

[Fran11]

 

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

So red should not disappear completely. It should always lurk in the shadows waiting to be called when needed to bring change through violence and control where other methods to tackle evil have failed. 

@Preety_India I feel you are thinking more about higher stages with a healthy embodiment of Red traits (like Green being involved in a violent revolution) than solid Red. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Preety_India]

@Fran11  I'd say a more healthy Red. 

An educated revolutionary Red. 

 

[Fran11]

39 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

An educated revolutionary Red. 

Well, I wouldn't consider an educated and consciously revolutionary person solid Red.

For example, Leo used Che Guevara as an example of Green in the respective video, altough he embodied the violence of Red.

But I understand what you mean, there are social situations in which violence, which is a Red trait, is necessary in order to avoid abuses.

That's why is important that we don't demonize lower stages and instesd integrate their healthy asspects and capacities.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Preety_India]

@Fran11  sometimes you need those mafia like qualities of the Red to deal with certain types of people who won't leave their behavior despite being polite to them, you know what I mean 

Let's say if you have tenant who doesn't pay rent and doesn't leave and also encroaches your space or doesn't give up their bad abusive behavior, that's where you'll think of going Red on them. 

But the only thing that Red should be used in the right context. Often Red is generally used by Abusers/bullies rather than protectors. 

Most people would like to deal with a bad person in a decent way. But that decent way doesn't work. Thats when that bad person needs a dose of Red. 

 

 

[Preety_India]

37 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

That's why is important that we don't demonize lower stages and instesd integrate their healthy asspects and capacities.

You're right about that.. 

GIVE ME RED 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Preety_India

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Most people would like to deal with a bad person in a decent way. But that decent way doesn't work. Thats when that bad person needs a dose of Red. 

That's right.

Even people from higher stages sometimes leave you no choice but to apply some proper Red 

[Preety_India]

 

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

That's right.

Even people from higher stages sometimes leave you no choice but to apply some proper Red 

Stage Red works really good against stage Blue Chauvinists. 

For example in my country there are many instances where the government does not respect the rights of the citizens. 

They will make it difficult to get access to basic services like ID card. 

Government has also taken away lands that belonged to people. Some people were forcefully evacuated because the government is corrupt and they make some stupid rule to make people suffer. 

So often it happens that a very poor old person approaches the government building for a basic thing like an Identification card so that he can get his money in his bank account but the government agent refuses because of some stupid mistake like a spelling error on his document (but this error is also made by the government employees) and the person is denied his basic right to his own money in his bank.. 

In such situations a stage green activist will stand outside the building to protest or will go on hunger strike but the government is a ruthless unhealthy stage Blue that is using the web of rules to get away from their responsibilities rather than giving citizens what they deserve. This is the greatest fear with governments, of course because they hold more power than they are more liable for their actions than citizens. But the government Gaslights the citizens and makes them feel guilty for asking for their own rights on the grounds of "so and so rule is not followed by you so we deny you this right".... 

Stage Green is very limited. Because they don't want to hurt people. So they go around burning buildings and disrupting public property and some burning here and there. But nothing happens with such violence. The government still goes on with its Blue stage exploitation and justifies it in the name of rules and laws and regulations. 

This is where these so called higher stage Government people are actually doing more harm to the innocent public in the name of Rule 

 

The problem is there is nobody above the government. That's why there is nobody to hold the government accountable for their actions. 

It's like.... Will the police, police themselves or investigate themselves???? And the clear answer is no. 

But there is nobody to police the police. 

At this point, where we need stage Red to hold authority accountable through violence.. 

Since the stage Green violence of burning buildings and objects doesn't have any impact, that is where real human violence is needed to bring peace and justice. To teach a lesson 

So some person will punch the government employee. That's when the stubborn government employee will immediately do the work and not trouble anymore.. 

So this is where I think a stage Red militia group is born to tackle the exploitation by the government or the police. Like a mini terrorist group. 

But this is needed absolutely. Because the any form of concentrated power soon becomes corrupt if there is nobody to hold them accountable. 

So with a government that holds total power, you also need an anti-government in the background to keep the government on its toes and hold it liable for it's disingenuous actions to the public. 

 

[Forestluv]

In terms of spiral development, get them involved in something like boxing, marital arts or Outward Bound. 

[integral]

@Fran11 

 

between 49:25 - 1:02:30, a different take on healthy red, might give ideas of how to mobilize them.

TJ reeves claims to be coral and much of what ive read seems like your transitioning out of turquoise. maybe lol

[Preety_India]

Wasn't TJ Reeves on this website? 

If I remember?