People actually evolve from green to orange

[RedLine]

24 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Maybe you are confusing Orange with Yellow.

Green tends to treat economics from a very idelaistic position without considering the systemic consecuences of some policies, or if they are apropiate for the country and historical time they are living in.

This sort of "Lets just take all the rich people's money, give it to the poor and damn the long term consecuences"  very simplistic attitude.

This is much more problematic in underdeveloped regions than in first world countries. It backlashes hard.

Therefore when they learn to think more systemically (Yellow), they may incorporate some seemingly Orange elements, but the difference is that they will do so from a purely pragmatic position and not because of some libertarian ideology and dogma.

They will still care about Green values like helping the poor, taking care of he enviroment, etc. But from a more down to earth and effective position.

So do you think that what is called "right" (yellow according what you say) in Europe, for example are more evolved that the "left" (green).

Who is orange in Europe then? could you name someboy? 

Edited October 14, 2020 by RedLine

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

So do you think that what is called "right" (yellow according what you say) in Europe, for example are more evolved that the "left" (green).

No, I'm not saying Right is Yellow, probably is mostly Orange.

Orange doesn't understand systemic analysis either. 

But the problems of neglecting systemic analysis become more evident when you try to reform a system (Left) than when you try to mantain the status quo (Right).

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[TrustTheProcess]

31 minutes ago, RedLine said:

So no my point, whay is the difference between be in yellow and not be in yellow and having 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue.

I think a key indicator of yellow is flexibility in expressing values and a lack of judgement of others in the spiral. someone could be in yellow, but be very good at taking the orange or blue perspective as needed from a place of detachment. that is very different than actually being self identified and inflexible in orange/blue and being triggered by like green and red. 

31 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Name one.

Again... most stage green intellectuals(a vast majority of academics are green) did not gain influence or write before they were at stage green. It is hard to name intellectuals who had such clear transitions

A few clear non-anecdotal examples of transitions from orange to green and beyond evolution off the top of my head:

Bill Gates

Arnold Schwarzenegger 

Russel Brand

Joe Rogan

Leo Gura

Vaush Vidya

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by louhad

[RedLine]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

I'm not saying Right is Yellow, probably is mostly Orange.

Define the distictions between orange and yellow according to you clearly please, in order we can continue the discussion

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Define the distictions between orange and yellow according to you clearly please, in order we can continue the discussion

I already defined some at the end of my first post. The most important for this discussion are:

- Yellow is not naive about economics like Green, but it's not ideological about it (is not trying to dogmatically maximize indivudual freedom like a Libertarian, just for the sake of it).

For example, Yellow may want to reduce public expediture but just to a point where it is affordable for the country in question. While Orange will want to reduce it as much as possible because it's dogmatic about it.

Orange will be against all social policies, out of ideology. Green will be for all of them, also becouse of ideology. Yellow will consider each one in particular and their systemic effects.

- Yellow cares about Green values. But it's more effective at solving problems because it thinks holistically and avoids backlashes.

Orange, on the other hand, is much more egoistic and doesn't care about society or the enviroment, just personal gain.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[TrustTheProcess]

@RedLine Both are seemingly goal oriented, but are very different.

In short: 

Yellow is primarily interested in his/her impact on the broader system.

Orange is generally more status driven and fixated on growth. 

[RedLine]

4 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

I already defined some at the end of my first post. The most important for this discussion are:

- Yellow is not naive about economics like Green, but it's not ideological about it (is not trying to dogmatically maximize indivudual freedom like a Libertarian just for the sake of it).

For example, Yellow may want to reduce public expediture but just to a point where it is affordabld for the country in question. While Orange will want to reduce it as much as possible because it's dogmatic about it.

- Yellow cares about Green values. But it's more effective at solving problems because it thinks holistically.

If they are dogmatic about the taxes is because they rationally get to some economic principles which is convenient follow under any circumstances. There is actually a higher degree of rationality involved in thinking under a system vs think without system. It is not a dogma like religion

[Fran11]

54 minutes ago, RedLine said:

If they are dogmatic about the taxes is because they rationally get to some economic principles which is convenient follow under any circumstances. 

But you are putting national economical growth (GDP) as the top priority. It's still dogmatic. That would be Orange.

Yellow, if it's in an already resonably developed country, may sacrifice some extra economical growth for the sake of achieving greater equality and helping the lower classes. Among other things like protecting the enviroment.

Economic growth has been shown not to increase the happiness of a society after a certain point. The World Value Survey shows this, you can see it in Leo's video.

So, after societies achieve a certain degree of economic developement, it's natural not to prioritize it as much, and start looking at other asspects of society. Just like if an individual becomes rich, he/she won't be all about making money anymore.

But this, if applied in still underdeveloped countries, can be catastrophic (Argentina, Venezuela). Green doesn't understand the difference, neither does Orange.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Heart of Space]

A good example of the difference between green and yellow is:

People who are green tend to support reparations in the form of just giving people money.  Yellow would likely not.  Yellow would support more public expenditure in the form of utilities that give people the tools and the power to empower themselves.   The flaw with green thinking, in my opinion, is that it too much disregards personal responsibility in favor 'greater context' type of thinking (ie.  People of color struggle primarily because of the circumstances of the world rather their own beliefs and actions).  

Edited October 14, 2020 by Heart of Space

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Heart of Space said:

People who are green tend to support reoperations in the form of just giving people money.  Yellow would likely not.  Yellow would support more public expenditure in the form of utilities that give people the tools and the power to empower themselves.   The flaw with green thinking, in my opinion, is that it too much disregards personal responsibility in favor 'greater context' type of thinking (ie.  People of color struggle primarily because of the circumstances of the world rather there own beliefs and actions).  

Sure, and even if we take out the notion of personal responsability understood as a sort of "blaming", goverment and higher stages still need to take responsability and create the structure, the possibilities and incentives for the lower stages to move up instead of keeping them stuck and depending on the goverment forever.

[Heart of Space]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

Sure, and even if we take out the notion of personal responsability understood as a sort of "blaming", goverment and higher stages still need to take responsability and create the structure, the possibilities and incentives for the lower stages to move up instead of keeping them stuck and depending on the goverment forever.

Effectively yes.  Green thinking is very emotionally masturbatory because it tends to allow you to never take full responsibility for where you are in life.  Regardless of your circumstances, the only way for you to live the best life is for you to take full responsibility for your life and that's an emotionally exhausting and grueling thing to do.  Green mind tends to make full use of the intellect, but does not force itself into emotional discomfort and that's it's primary flaw in my opinion.  Constantly seeking emotional gratification is not good for development in my opinion.  

[supremeyingyang]

2 hours ago, RedLine said:

Not in theroy, but empirically based on my observation.

 

For exampe, most know intelectuals of my country (I can give you the names if you want) went from green to orange. They were basically hippies in the 60s and 70s but they grew and now they are liberals (libertarians, classica liberal, liberal-conservatives) whose discourse is basically focused on individual liberty.

I explained that as 'premature' Green what other People here explained as 'skipping Orange'. Some People stay in immature Green and become toxic, some regress into Orange (and develop the bias everyone in green is like they was...) and some integrate Orange and go into healthy Green. The Problem is that in my Estimation not enough make it to healthy Green.

 

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

You clearly didn´t understand my point and you are treating me like stupid, I seriously studied Spiral Dynamics books, I even study the original database used in the original research by Dr. Graves, which is pretty hard to find by the way and I paid a lot of money for.

That's cool! Could you share a Link to the Database in case anyone else want to dive in?

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

Yellow-turqouise integrate previous levels, you still could have preferences in relation to the levels, even when you accept to so you could be yellow-turqouise and  have the next preferences: 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. So no my point, whay is the difference between be in yellow and not be in yellow and having 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue.

This allegory explains it: It's like Grades in School. The 10. builds in top of 1.-9. Grade and you learn something new in the 10. Grade. Same Thing in Yellow: You learn something New. You learn to talk to People from all Stages beyond to get. You want to make Systems better for all People. The lower Stages tend to just want to covert everyone...

Edited October 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[tuckerwphotography]

There's already a thread about Green to Orange regression.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by tuckerwphotography

[tuckerwphotography]

55 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

A good example of the difference between green and yellow is:

People who are green tend to support reparations in the form of just giving people money.  Yellow would likely not.  Yellow would support more public expenditure in the form of utilities that give people the tools and the power to empower themselves.   The flaw with green thinking, in my opinion, is that it too much disregards personal responsibility in favor 'greater context' type of thinking (ie.  People of color struggle primarily because of the circumstances of the world rather their own beliefs and actions).  

@Heart of Space I think it's both/and. Thinking POC struggle because of their own actions is Orange thinking. Yellow sees that both Orange and Green have truths and is able to integrate them. Reparations may be a part of the overall package to help those who are ancestors of slavery, but it would be one of many ways to help POC not a magic cure-all.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

Another thing I don´t understand is: if you are yellow-turquoise you integrate all levels, it means you can appreciate aspects from the different levels. On the other hand, you can be on several levels at the same time, for example 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. What is the difference between the latter and being 100% yellow-turquoise?

There is a very easy test of whether the person is centered in Yellow - can they go full-on yellow at will? Can they fluently speak Yellow whenever they want? A being fully centered in Tier 2 can. A being that is 50% green, 40% orange and 10% blue cannot.

The easiest way for me to gauge one's level is to simply speak that level and see how fluent they are. If I speak yellow and the other person has difficulty speaking yellow, I know they haven't fully transcended Tier 1. Theoretically, a being centered in Yellow is fluent in all Tier 1 languages. They are fluent in Blue, Orange and Green as well as Yellow. Yet for many Yellow level people, there isn't much juice in the lower stages like Blue and Orange. For example, being restricted to Orange linear logic is boring work to most Yellow level minds. It would be like washing the dishes. Sometimes the dishes need to get washed, yet it's tedious, boring work. If someone said "Hey! Rather than exploring nature, let's wash the dirty dishes!". That's what it's like when an Orange level person says "Hey! Let's debate with linear logic!"

During early stages of Yellow development a person begins to naturally recognize and resonate with Yellow level minds. The next stage is when they can get pulled up to Yellow when engaging with a Yellow level person. More advanced stages is when the person can enter and explore Yellow on their own. 

When used properly, psychedelics can temporarily bump up a Tier 1 mind into Tier 2. Then the person drops back down to Tier 1 and can try to integrate the Tier 2. When used wisely, it can accelerate development for some people - especially those that are stable and mature in upper Orange / Green and are genuinely open and curious. 

[tuckerwphotography]

@Forestluv Can you write us a paragraph in Yellow language? That would be a fun way to break down SD by writing the same paragraph using different language representing each stage  

45 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

The easiest way for me to gauge one's level is to simply speak that level and see how fluent they are. 

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Forestluv Can you write us a paragraph in Yellow language? That would be a fun way to break down SD by writing the same paragraph using different language representing each stage  

I hadn't thought about the language analogy in the context. In the analogy I'm using it doesn't work. It would be like trying to translate a map of France to a map of Europe. Or translating the sound of a guitar to Chinese symbols. 

[Preety_India]

 

I'm mostly green. 

But I regressed to Orange last week. It feels better. Not gonna give up on Green. But integrating Orange helps in shunting the self destructive parts of Green. 

Being Green, Orange complements my traits well. 

I was solid Orange in my teens. Now it's a bit nostalgic. 

But this combo of healthy silent Orange and Proper Green is helping my evolution greatly. 

Next I'll be looking for integrating a bit of Turquoise and Red in my character. 

 

[Jodistrict]

Spiral dynamics seems to make more sense if you view it as a model of large scale cultural development, and not pertaining to individuals or even groups of individuals.  Any individual could move in any direction over a course of time.  What's to stop him?  Personally, I favor purple.    From a cultural perspective, before the 60s, America was solid blue with the orange business class supporting the blues.    Today, the culture is a split between green and blue, creating a culture war, with the greens winning and largely supported by the orange technologists.  

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Any individual could move in any direction over a course of time.  What's to stop him?   

There is some nonlinear fluidity, yet there is also some linear structure. For example, what's to stop someone from learning calculus before algebra? . . . Algebra is a necessary foundation upon which to learn calculus. Similarly, one needs to develop binary modes of thinking (blue) before they learn spectral (orange) and relativistic (green/yellow) modes of thinking.