People actually evolve from green to orange

[RedLine]

Not in theroy, but empirically based on my observation.

 

For exampe, most know intelectuals of my country (I can give you the names if you want) went from green to orange. They were basically hippies in the 60s and 70s but they grew and now they are liberals (libertarians, classica liberal, liberal-conservatives) whose discourse is basically focused on individual liberty.

Could you name an intellectual who was libertarian and now he is green? I can´t find anyone.

 

Also, I observe most people evolve from green (teenagers and 20s) to orange and not the other way around. In fact there is a saying that goes like this: If you were not left (green, hippie, collectivist) when you were young, it is because you didn't have a heart, if as an adult you are not right wind (liberal-conservative, orange), you are stupid.

 

 

How do you explain that? According to spiral dynamics they went backwards but it is pretty clear that they are more mature now.

 

This is just one of the inconsistencies of Spiral Dynmics. I have a lot more. As time goes on this theory makes less sense to me. It has holes all over it.

Edited October 14, 2020 by RedLine

[TrustTheProcess]

easy to get sucked into the inertia of your society. It is possible to regress, especially if you have not mastered orange and go to green too quickly. look at boomers in the americas or hippie college kids who end up being corporate sellouts. 

[Rilles]

this will be a popcorn fest?

[RedLine]

3 minutes ago, louhad said:

easy to get sucked into the inertia of your society. It is possible to regress, especially if you have not mastered orange and go to green too quickly. look at boomers in the americas or hippie college kids who end up being corporate sellouts. 

This is dirty game that spiral dynamic plays.

If  empirical reality agrees with the theory evertyhing is ok, is empirical reality doesn´t support the theoy it is a regression. In this sense the theory is irrefutable, Can´t you see the trick?

 

All the people that I mentioned clearly evolved, they were idealist when they are young, then they grow and become liberals. How can you prove they had a regression?

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by RedLine

[Rilles]

7 minutes ago, RedLine said:

This is dirty game that spiral dynamic plays.

If  empirical reality agrees with the theory evertyhing is ok, is empirical reality doesn´t support the theoy it is a regression. In this sense the theory is irrefutable, Can´t you see the trick?

 

All the people that I mentioned clearly evolved, they were idealist when they are young, then they grow and become liberals. How can you prove they had a regression?

 

So regression can happen in other parts of reality but not in Spiral Dynamics? Regression happens, its not an excuse, but you have to look at the context of the situation.

A deadbeat hippie smoking pot living on his moms couch is gonna get tired of that and regress to Orange. A CEO getting sick of the 9-5 grind is going to progress to Green. 

No contradiction there. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Rilles

[Parththakkar12]

@RedLine As you grow and mature through life, different facets of life come up. You may be stuck at the lower stages in those areas, while you may have grown pretty far in other areas in your earlier life.

I think for the people you're mentioning, they're at a different position in life today than they were in their teens and twenties. Now, as they have kids and they see that they're the role-models for future generations and it's their responsibility to teach the future generations, they probably want to be able to give their kids as much individual liberty as possible. They may not be wanting to indoctrinate their kids into Stage Green SJW ideology. Going up to Green takes a lot of personal responsibility and ideally you don't want to be indoctrinated into an SJW culture, rather you want to evolve up the spiral to take collective responsibility later in life. This is why they will focus on personal responsibility and creating a society that empowers the individual. This is probably even higher than Green, where they're integrating lower stages and going into Spiral wizardry.

Maybe they're not at Green currently, maybe they're at Tier-2, i.e. Yellow and Turquoise. At Tier-2, you'll be able to understand your audience better and you'll be able to tell them what they need to hear with greater precision and accuracy, especially with your own personal maturity coming into play.

[TrustTheProcess]

2 minutes ago, RedLine said:

This is dirty game that spiral dynamic plays.

If  empirical reality agrees with the theory evertyhing is ok, is empirical reality doesn´t support the theoy it is a regression. In this sense the theory is irrefutable, Can´t you see the trick?

 

The book specifically addresses regressions. Read it if you are interested.

3 minutes ago, RedLine said:

All the people that I mentioned clearly evolved, they were idealist when they are young, then they grow and become liberals. How can you prove they had a regression?

They had a regression because their worldviews become more self oriented and less conscious. Again, they got sucked into the level of development of their society and were forced to adapt to their living conditions. I mean homie, you don't gotta believe in SD unless it aligns with you common sense and is useful in understanding the world around you-- it is just a model and nobody is forcing you to like it. 

[ArchangelG]

The hippies skipped orange. They reacted to blue and jumped up to green and then to orange.

What is also critical to understand when it comes to spiral dynamics/integral theory is the difference between waking up and growing up. 

[Rilles]

3 minutes ago, louhad said:

you don't gotta believe in SD unless it aligns with you common sense and is useful in understanding the world around you-- it is just a model and nobody is forcing you to like it. 

This is so true! Spiral Dynamics is one of the best models for explaining all the culture wars going on for example but its just a model, just like how math can explain things in the universe but youre not literally walking in binary code during your daily life. 

For me its ridiculous that we dont even any good terms for people except for SjWs or Right-Wingers, thats so negative, seeing it as Green vs Blue is alot better, or Post-Modern vs Modern but even that implies some negativite stereotypes. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Rilles

[RedLine]

2 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@RedLine As you grow and mature through life, different facets of life come up. You may be stuck at the lower stages in those areas, while you may have grown pretty far in other areas in your earlier life.

I think for the people you're mentioning, they're at a different position in life today than they were in their teens and twenties. Now, as they have kids and they see that they're the role-models for future generations and it's their responsibility to teach the future generations, they probably want to be able to give their kids as much individual liberty as possible. They may not be wanting to indoctrinate their kids into Stage Green SJW ideology. Going up to Green takes a lot of personal responsibility and ideally you don't want to be indoctrinated into an SJW culture, rather you want to evolve up the spiral to take collective responsibility later in life. This is why they will focus on personal responsibility and creating a society that empowers the individual. This is probably even higher than Green, where they're integrating lower stages and going into Spiral wizardry.

Maybe they're not at Green currently, maybe they're at Tier-2, i.e. Yellow and Turquoise. At Tier-2, you'll be able to understand your audience better and you'll be able to tell them what they need to hear with greater precision and accuracy, especially with your own personal maturity coming into play.

Another thing I don´t understand is: if you are yellow-turquoise you integrate all levels, it means you can appreciate aspects from the different levels. On the other hand, you can be on several levels at the same time, for example 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. What is the difference between the latter and being 100% yellow-turquoise?

 

[Parththakkar12]

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

Another thing I don´t understand is: if you are yellow-turquoise you integrate all levels, it means you can appreciate aspects from the different levels. On the other hand, you can be on several levels at the same time, for example 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. What is the difference between the latter and being 100% yellow-turquoise?

 

I'm not 100% yellow-turquoise. I don't know for sure, but I don't think it's possible. Yellow and turquoise are about being, while Tier-1 is about action and doing in the world.

If you notice all the collectives in the world right now, none of them are at Tier-2. All of them are at Tier-1. This is because in order for a collective to come together, there must be some sort of collective material objective or goal! Human beings are 3D oriented materialistic creatures and if we don't have a collective material goal, our individual materialistic agendas will take us away from each other and the collective will dissolve.

What you can work on though is having a core of Yellow/Turquoise and play the Tier-1 game of survival and action from that space.

[TrustTheProcess]

22 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Could you name an intellectual who was libertarian and now he is green? I can´t find anyone.

on this point, a vast majority of academics and intellectuals are green. You don't know what these intellectuals were like before they started to write papers and gain influence. Guarantee that a lot of socialist green academics were libertarians as teens....  then they took soc 101 in college and actually started reading books. 

 

[RendHeaven]

Lol  Orange thinking he is above green. The most common trope~

[RedLine]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Lol  Orange thinking he is above green. The most common trope~

I am pretty far from individualistic cosmovisions, actually I used to have a lot of confrentation with these people, so it is not the case here. I am just trying to test Spiral Dynmics based on my empirical observations. I am very interested in development maps.

Edited October 14, 2020 by RedLine

[outlandish]

This is a great observation.

The idea of progression vs regression through the scale is just our own language/judgement for movement between the stages. I believe it is a skillful judgement, and that the hierarchy is correct, but nonetheless there's nothing demanding that people always move in a straight line up through the stages (this is part of why it's a spiral and not a line or ladder).

In the spiral yellow sits directly on top of orange. When you transition out of green, it's very easy to light up the orange elements as you move into yellow - to the extent where you can end up in orange instead of yellow. There are a lot of parallels between yellow and orange - they are both skewing to the individual, and value rationality. I believe that sometimes people light up orange a lot on their way up to tier 2, and many people (like 90% of the boomer generation in western industrial society) get stuck there, fail to make the leap, and reside in orange. I think it's especially easy for people to end up there as they age and find it harder to learn new things and to change.

The major difference between yellow and orange is that yellow incorporates green deeply at it moves on, and the people who "regress" from green to orange simply have rejected the green perspective, rather than building on it as they turn inward slightly, and begin to take a very honest look at the world.

[TrustTheProcess]

6 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Another thing I don´t understand is: if you are yellow-turquoise you integrate all levels, it means you can appreciate aspects from the different levels. On the other hand, you can be on several levels at the same time, for example 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. What is the difference between the latter and being 100% yellow-turquoise?

 

the book explains this. 

essentially, there is no such thing as a green person-- it is more accurate to say that the center of gravity of this person's value systems are green. Also, you can be at different levels across different facets of life. For example, a corporate ceo could be orange in business, Purple/green in family life, and blue in spirituality. Yellow is specifically about flexibility, big picture, integral thinking. It is a quantum leap in consciousness. do some more research if you are intrigued. 

[Matt23]

There could also be a difference between Spiral Dynamics stages and other personality factors, like degree of open-mindedness or a youthful idealism.  

[RedLine]

12 minutes ago, louhad said:

the book explains this. 

essentially, there is no such thing as a green person-- it is more accurate to say that the center of gravity of this person's value systems are green. Also, you can be at different levels across different facets of life. For example, a corporate ceo could be orange in business, Purple/green in family life, and blue in spirituality. Yellow is specifically about flexibility, big picture, integral thinking. It is a quantum leap in consciousness. do some more research if you are intrigued. 

You clearly didn´t understand my point and you are treating me like stupid, I seriously studied Spiral Dynamics books, I even study the original database used in the original research by Dr. Graves, which is pretty hard to find by the way and I paid a lot of money for.

 

Yellow-turqouise integrate previous levels, you still could have preferences in relation to the levels so you could be yellow-turqouise and  have the next preferences: 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue. So no my point, whay is the difference between be in yellow and not be in yellow and having 50% green, 40% orange, 10% blue.

 

 

19 minutes ago, louhad said:

on this point, a vast majority of academics and intellectuals are green. You don't know what these intellectuals were like before they started to write papers and gain influence. Guarantee that a lot of socialist green academics were libertarians as teens....  then they took soc 101 in college and actually started reading books. 

 

Name one.

Edited October 14, 2020 by RedLine

[Fran11]

Maybe you are confusing Orange with Yellow.

Green tends to treat economics from a very idelaistic position without considering the systemic consecuences of some policies, or if they are apropiate for the country and historical time they are living in.

This sort of "Lets just take all the rich people's money, give it to the poor and damn the long term consecuences"  very simplistic attitude.

This is much more problematic in underdeveloped regions than in first world countries. It backlashes hard.

Venezuela and Argentina are examples of what happens when you try to rush too quick into a first world-like state, while being in a still highly corrupt and low socioeconomically developed country.

Therefore when they learn to think more systemically (Yellow), they may incorporate some seemingly Orange elements, but the difference is that they will do so from a purely pragmatic position and not because of some libertarian ideology and dogma.

They will still care about Green values like helping the poor, taking care of he enviroment, etc. But from a more down to earth and effective position.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Fran11

[Heart of Space]

I've always viewed orange as more of a pragmatic selfishness.  Generally, those people have moved beyond being dogmatic religionists and have a more secular viewpoint.  But they haven't moved beyond the point where they don't have a false narrative about how they should live their lives based around materialism.  

I'd disagree with you because for me personally I feel I evolved from orange to more green.  It happened when I changed my idea of how I should live my life and had a less selfish viewpoint.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by Heart of Space