“Direct” experience does NOT exist

[r0ckyreed]

So I watched Actuality vs. Concept (great episode btw). But a question came to my mind after I read Jed McKenna’s chapter on the veil of perception. Jed basically tells us to look at our hands and notice that we do NOT and cannot experience them directly. We only experience the world indirectly. 
 

We do not experience ACTUAL reality. The only thing that is perceived is consciousness or perception itself. There is no evidence that our perceptions are based in reality.

I find the basic idea of “direct” experience to be true. There is nothing outside of consciousness. I think of consciousness and “direct” experience or actuality as the same thing. However, since we do not experience reality directly, we should just call it “experience” or “consciousness” or “actuality” instead of “direct” experience because this notion of direct experience seems to imply that we have a direct experience of reality. But the fact is, is that we do not know if reality even exists. 
 

I mean if our imaginary brain is perceiving the world, then this shows that we only have a secondary experience of reality. Everything else is being interpreted by imaginary neurons and nervous system, which is itself an idea. So we do not experience an ACTUAL hand or ACTUAL reality, but the perceptions of a hand and reality.  Consciousness itself and the room I am in now is what I think is meant by actuality, but we should not call it “direct” experience. To you, my room and “me” is a concept, and even “you” and your rooms are concepts to “me.” Gosh this is confusing lol. Man I am literally typing to an imaginary friend lol.

Edited October 13, 2020 by r0ckyreed

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

We only experience the world indirectly. 

Wrong

Quote

We do not experience ACTUAL reality.

Of course you do.

Quote

But the fact is, is that we do not know if reality even exists.

Yes we do. Here it is. Directly. Absolute Truth.

Quote

I mean if our imaginary brain is perceiving the world, then this shows that we only have a secondary experience of reality. Everything else is being interpreted by imaginary neurons and nervous system, which is itself an idea.

No. That's all just a conceptual story. If the brain is imaginary, then there is no secondary process and your experience is direct.

This is all perfectly explained in my video: What Is Perception?

[ivankiss]

Beingness is direct. Right now.

Experience happens in reverse - to put it that way. It's a 'lag'.

 

[r0ckyreed]

Damn it’s so easy to get lost in concepts.

[diamondpenguin]

What you experience is what exists. This is "it"

[Leo Gura]

@r0ckyreed The color red is the color red. It is exactly what it is. Don't go looking for it to be something else -- down that road lies insanity.

[r0ckyreed]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wrong

Of course you do.

Yes we do. Here it is. Directly. Absolute Truth.

No. That's all just a conceptual story. If the brain is imaginary, then there is no secondary process and your experience is direct.

This is all perfectly explained in my video: What Is Perception?

Damn it’s so easy to get lost in concepts. Thanks for calling out my bullshit.
 

In my inquiry, I find that Direct Experience is all that exists. Even though, this is the case for me, I still question whether what appears to be here is what is actually here because our minds influence and project many ideas into reality. Also, there are illusions in reality, but I guess what is Actual is that the illusions are occuring and anything else is Imagination. 
 

I have a direct experience of a magician making a dove appear/disappear out a hat, but the method of the illusion is Imagination from my perspective, which is the only thing that is Actual to me.

I see how Direct Experience is what is, but I also see that my direct experiences may not be accurate when I see a magician. A magician’s job is to fuck with my reality. I have a direct experience of the magic, which appears to be real, but I am imagining when I speculate how he does it.

If I just went based off of my direct experiences alone and not off of my own past experiences in magic (which are imaginary), I would be convinced that a dove actually appeared and disappeared (or whatever magic trick you think makes sense). 
 

Oh! I think I see it now! What I see is what I see. It is what it is. It is actual! But if I start believing it is true or false or yatta yatta and going off in concepts like I’m doing now, then I will and I am lost in concepts.

The hypothetical case about the magician and magic is all imagination. Even the idea of whether a magic trick is illusion and reality is an idea itself!

[r0ckyreed]

@Leo Gura thank you! I just read you response about color red.  This was the conclusion I came up with after realizing that the whole idea about magic and the magician is just more imagination. The idea that my senses are based in reality or not is imagination. The only thing that exists is NOW.

Edited October 13, 2020 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

I think I finally realized the Donkey and mirror analogy that you described about trying to get the donkey to see itself. In a way, you are trying to do that with “me.” I am starting to see that whatever it is that I am looking for, it can only be found here in this moment. There is nowhere else I can be but here. I am talking about I as in direct experience not this thing behind the eyes. 
 

it’s almost like what Douglas Harding said about headlessness. “Where my head should be, all I see is the world.” @Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@r0ckyreed Take a psychedelic to seriously advance your understanding.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

it’s almost like what Douglas Harding said about headlessness. “Where my head should be, all I see is the world.”

Yes.

What remains when you strip your experience of all stories, beliefs, concepts, interpretations, projections?

This seems easy to do or imagine, but what you imagine it will be like is yet another fantasy, not what it will actually be like.

It is very, very tricky to drop all your interpretations of the present moment. You are basically incapable of it from your current state of consciousness. Your state needs to change to allow it.

What I'm suggesting is that you ever succeeding in dropping all your interpretations and projections, you could not even tell the difference between the color red and a taco. You would not know what anything is and you would be completely lost. You would not even know your own name or whether you were ever born.

[r0ckyreed]

@Leo GuraThank you so much again for your help with my journey. 
 

That Actuality vs concept has to be like the MOST important videos of yours, but that is just a belief, concept and imagination.  

I am starting to see the Actuality is essential to any meditation because like you said we want to strip away all concepts and baggage to have the NOW raw and fully experienced.

Very good. Thank you!

[Leo Gura]

@r0ckyreed Yes. Your hand is Absolute Truth. Keep looking at it.

Maybe after 10 years of that you'll get it

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You would not know what anything is and you would be completely lost. You would not even know your own name or whether you were ever born.

is this the point of enlightenment work? To Be that?

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

is this the point of enlightenment work? To Be that?

Yes

But, again, your ideas of what "that" is, are wrong, since they are more interpretations and fantasies.

[electroBeam]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes

But, again, your ideas of what "that" is, are wrong, since they are more interpretations and fantasies.

How do you know whether jumping into that state is wise/not dangerous, if I can't trust you, my fantasies, or anything. 

For example, I have had several psychotic episodes in the past, just because jumping in that state is great for you, it might not be great for me, it might send me into eternal salvia. 

How do you test whether that state is safe before jumping into it?

[Shin]

You're imagining your body, distinctions between objects, objects, a sense of self.

Beliefs are deeply seated in your mind about those, so it feels real, but the same way as you can let go of Santa Claus, you can let go of those too.

You'll just lose your mind in the process ?

Look the sticky posts, there are exercices that will destroy your most basic assumptions of reality ?

[DreamScape]

@electroBeam kundalini awakening can heal genetic predispositions, both physical and mental. So you CAN do it.

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

How do you test whether that state is safe before jumping into it?

There's the rub. It's death.

If you are looking for safe, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[electroBeam]

28 minutes ago, DreamScape said:

@electroBeam kundalini awakening can heal genetic predispositions, both physical and mental.

No way they give you physical and mental predispositions