Epistemic Questions

[electroBeam]

1) what's the point of suffering? Why suffer? 

2) why do we chase happiness instead of just accepting what we are?

3) the universe/present moment/You has no boundaries, yet right now the dream is in a very specific form. Why that specific form right now?

4) Does infinity include delusion? If so how does it if delusion isn't true/actually there. 

[Adamq8]

1. I think it is because to keep you invested in this reality and it feels real , and somehow i think that life is suffering even tho it is the most precious thing we got as well.

2. Cause we have been raised and tricked into believing that happiness comes from outside of ourselves, material happiness or if i just get this job/insight/girl/car or whatever, and you can't be happy within you cause then you are weird ?

3. I think because we are to scared to really question and go deep into this particular dream and recognize that we are totally delusional in believing in it, but it is hard cause you can't compare it to something else, cause it is all you know.

4. Delusional is included in infinity from my point of view, it is a fail safe thing to keep you from the existential questions, you have to forget or else you can't live and care about survival of your self 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

1) what's the point of suffering? Why suffer? 

Suffering is the currency of survival.

 

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

2) why do we chase happiness instead of just accepting what we are?

Because survival necessitates evolution. Suffering drives evolution, evolution drives survival.

 

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

3) the universe/present moment/You has no boundaries, yet right now the dream is in a very specific form. Why that specific form right now?

If the universe is boundless and infinite, it must also contain you as a possible configuration of itself, or else it couldn't be absolutely infinite. If it didn't contain the limited little you who is suffering and asking anthropocentric questions, then it would be limited and not infinite.

 

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

4) Does infinity include delusion? If so how does it if delusion isn't true/actually there. 

Delusion is just when you take an illusion for its appearance rather than its substance. An illusion is simply something that appears as something it isn't. The illusion still exists, therefore the illusion is true, just as much as the thing it appears to be is true.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[electroBeam]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Suffering is the currency of survival.

Why does survival exist?

 

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Because survival necessitates evolution. Suffering drives evolution, evolution drives survival.

Why does evolution exist?

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If the universe is boundless and infinite, it must also contain you as a possible configuration of itself, or else it couldn't be absolutely infinite. If it didn't contain the limited little you who is suffering and asking anthropocentric questions, then it would be limited and not infinite.

But why this specific self and form right now? Who decided to manifest this specific form right now? If the universe is boundless, then there are boundless amounts of possible forms, why this specific one right now? Is there a deeper chain of reactions which caused this specific form to occur? Does being this specific form right now help play a greater role as a whole? Or is it random and if its random then what is randomness? Isn't randomness just delusion?

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Delusion is just when you take an illusion for its appearance rather than its substance. An illusion is simply something that appears as something it isn't. The illusion still exists, therefore the illusion is true, just as much as the thing it appears to be is true.

The illusion exists and is true, but confusing the appearance for substance isn't true. Does infinity include confusing appearance for substance?

[Nahm]

Infinite can not know finite. 

Delusion isn’t there like sanity isn’t there. 

[electroBeam]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Infinite can not know finite. 

Delusion isn’t there like sanity isn’t there. 

So how did you get deluded in the first place?

[Nahm]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Infinite can not know finite. 

Delusion isn’t there like sanity isn’t there. 

 

[electroBeam]

@Nahm so reincarnating into trump and his delusion isnt possible?

EDIT: ignore this q

Nevermind. If all of my recollection of suffering was from the past, and the past didn't actually happen, how do I know if I've ever suffered before. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by electroBeam

[Akemrelax]

Here are my quick answers:

1) Suffering makes happiness/bliss possible. Suffering acts as the opposition against which happiness exists.

2) The same reason we play video games. Imagined identities make us chase.

3) To experience a part of the infinity, infinity has to become non-infinity. It is like that because you want it and because it wants to explore/play. In infinity, all the states are “limited”.

4) Infinity includes “delusion” but there is no one definition of delusion so all states of infinity are delusions. In human terms delusion is defined relative to a “base” state of consciousness/identity, otherwise there is no state that’s deluded.

Hope that made sense. 

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

1) what's the point of suffering? Why suffer? 

2) why do we chase happiness instead of just accepting what we are?

3) the universe/present moment/You has no boundaries, yet right now the dream is in a very specific form. Why that specific form right now?

4) Does infinity include delusion? If so how does it if delusion isn't true/actually there. 

I see no point except in my mind. I see no suffering except in my mind. I see no why except in my mind. I see no delusion except in my mind. 

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

1) what's the point of suffering? Why suffer?

The point is itself. "Why" is an invalid existential question. Existence is larger than reason. Reason is a certain connection that the mind creates between different parts of existence, and that connection only adds to existence but never replaces it. Reason becomes a part of existence.

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

2) why do we chase happiness instead of just accepting what we are?

Again, not an existential question.

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

3) the universe/present moment/You has no boundaries, yet right now the dream is in a very specific form. Why that specific form right now?

Same.

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

4) Does infinity include delusion? If so how does it if delusion isn't true/actually there. 

Infinity includes everything. And everything does not think like humans. It's like a spell. You can't actually tell what's really there from what's not. Infinity does not distinguish between delusion and truth, because it does not think from the limits of the human mind. It thinks from infinite potential.

[erik8lrl]

1. Because of love

2. Because of love

3. Because of love

4. Because of love

[An young being]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

.

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

1) what's the point of suffering? Why suffer? 

You need something inside you to tell something is wrong with what's happening around you, so that you can increase your chance of survival. You suffer because somebody breaks your heart, it means that is not a right thing to do and it's better to move away from them. You suffer because you have a disease, the body wants you to know that you have some serious trouble and you should stop moving. Nature doesn't care about any of this, it's just a sandbox program and life is something that is built around it. Suffering is still a part of you because this trait has managed to keep you alive more than other traits. Nature's job is to keep going on till you have a combination that makes you survive as long as possible. If there is a purpose behind all this or if it's just random, that's a difficult question to answer.

2) why do we chase happiness instead of just accepting what we are?

We have got to the point where we can take care of survival. So, suffering is no longer needed. Happiness is also a part of evolution, it is formed as an anti dote to suffering, so that suffering itself doesn't make you die.

We chase happiness simply because it gives an illusion of making you feel good.

Accepting what we are is the fundamental nature of what we are. But that didn't get you where you are because if everyone has accepted whatever is happening to us before 1000 years, humanity might have stopped existing and there will be very less things to experience. Now, we are capable of surviving without all the fuss, getting back to it fundamental nature of acceptance shall be the better step.

3) the universe/present moment/You has no boundaries, yet right now the dream is in a very specific form. Why that specific form right now?

 Unanswerable, but here is what I believe for now:

The specific form is what the brain is capable of showing to us out of the infinite forms. All possible forms and rules exist, only that this self is experiencing this particular form at this particular time with this particular set of rules.

4) Does infinity include delusion? If so how does it if delusion isn't true/actually there. 

As long as memories are involved, everything is less real or more delusional. Delusions are passive reaction to memories, whereas experience is active reaction to memories. Experience of void is void of memories. Memories make life less realistic and more fun.

 

 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Nevermind. If all of my recollection of suffering was from the past, and the past didn't actually happen, how do I know if I've ever suffered before. 

Dude.. You've reached a point beyond the mind. You are causing yourself suffering by this kind of a epistemological nihilism. How do you know the past really happened?  Ofcourse you don't. But you've got memories.. I assume.  How can you trust memories?  Ofcourse you can't. You can't trust anything. Because you can not trust it if you wish. Simple as that how the mind works. .  That's what happens when you push the mind to it's limits. It collapses. You discover that all your mental framework is just a house of cards. I would suggest picking up a meditation practice and just calm your mind and connect with the present moment.   

[electroBeam]

20 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Dude.. You've reached a point beyond the mind. You are causing yourself suffering by this kind of a epistemological nihilism. How do you know the past really happened?  Ofcourse you don't. But you've got memories.. I assume.  How can you trust memories?  Ofcourse you can't. You can't trust anything. Because you can not trust it if you wish. Simple as that how the mind works. .  That's what happens when you push the mind to it's limits. It collapses. You discover that all your mental framework is just a house of cards. I would suggest picking up a meditation practice and just calm your mind and connect with the present moment.   

you've severely miscalculated what that realization was. I said I cannot know if I've ever suffered before. Do you realize how shocking that is? Do you realize that realizing that removes any possibility of "suffering by this kind of epistemological nihilism"?

As for the rest of what you wrote, did you read my comment in your mental illness thread, and then did that send you into some freaky land or something? Because yes the mind is a house of cards, but it doesn't just collapse whenever you want it to . I was referring to psychotically ill people. Not everyone can be psychotically ill, its resevered for a niche amount of minds who are predisposed to it. The house of cards is well protected by most minds. I bet my money that no matter how hard you try, as long as you dont do something insane like jump off a cliff or take datura or something, that you will never ever experience psychosis in your lifetime, even if you meditate for millions of hours, heck even if you starve yourself. You'll never get there conventionally, so you don't have to worry about it. 

I'm aware that most people on here like to have a comfortable, very slow and steady pace along the path. Not everyone is like that. I prefer things to be more fast. Which may come off as being freaky to you, but everything is ok. 

Also its not as simple as just connect with the present moment and calm down. If you're having severe physical symptoms, its hard to differentiate them from a health complication and a psychological complication. They seem the exact same. You don't want to just be letting go and relaxing if you're having a heart attack or a hormonal imbalance. You can't just assume that if you're going through an intense experience, that its definitely not a health complication. Some sober experiences are so intense that you literally can't tell whether its a serious physical problem or just some psycho spiritual problem. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by electroBeam

[Someone here]

@electroBeam I read your comment there and I totally get what you mean. And I wish you the best man. Although I find it difficult to understand you sometimes are these  insights causing you suffering or causing you freedom from suffering. Or a mixture of both not sure. 

what you don't understand tho.. I don't make that distinction between mentally ill and not mentally ill.. The mind itself is ill. But to different degrees. So there is no safety.. Security.. Answers.. Or certainty to be found in the mind.  I'm saying  this because you seem to be suffering a bit from these insights. It's all purely mental. Sometimes we get so fucking lost in concepts we can't distinguish them from reality. 

12 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

. Isaid I cannot know if I've ever suffered before. Do you realize how shocking that is? Do you realize that realizing that removes any possibility of "suffering by this kind of epistemological nihilism"?

 How?  How do you explain memories? You've got memories of suffering no?  If you gonna dismiss them you gotta dismiss all memories altogether.. But apparently you didn't because you are using your memory of learning language to type this...

who are you without a past? 

[Someone here]

42 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Also its not as simple as just connect with the present moment and calm down. If you're having severe physical symptoms, its hard to differentiate them from a health complication and a psychological complication. They seem the exact same. You don't want to just be letting go and relaxing if you're having a heart attack or a hormonal imbalance. You can't just assume that if you're going through an intense experience, that its definitely not a health complication. Some sober experiences are so intense that you literally can't tell whether its a serious physical problem or just some psycho spiritual. 

Yeah sure.. Seems like you have an uncertainty fetish.  The trick is you can't ever differentiate.. You just gotta fake that you can and move along. Or stay in your place forever trying to split a a nanometer that you can't even see. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Someone here

[electroBeam]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@electroBeamAlthough I find it difficult to understand you sometimes are these  insights causing you suffering or causing you freedom from suffering. Or a mixture of both not sure. 

Sure  because truth is more important to me then relieving suffering or keeping away from scary stuff. If the truth turned out that everything is bad, I'd still venture there and find it. I'm not doing that to be a macho spiritual man, there's just this deep sense of respect and importance and significance to truth that its sort of a very personal thing that I must endeavour on and that importance blows away any resistance to discovering the truth like for example the counter argument of you're gonna suffer. 

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@electroBeam 

what you don't understand tho.. I don't make that distinction between mentally ill and not mentally ill.. The mind itself is ill. But to different degrees. So there is no safety.. Security.. Answers.. Or certainty to be found in the mind.

Yep nice. Different people have different levels of 'solidity' in their mind structures. Some people are super stubborn and their mind structures are super rigid, while others are more open minded and others have such flimsy mind structures that they can collapse easily. For most people, they remain ok because their minds are quite rigid. And its not a choice for them, so even if they didnt want it to be rigid anymore, it would still be rigid, hence why most people can keep sane. And most people are safe from psychosis. Your mind can be ill, like you can have OCD, and traumas and negative thoughts and all that stuff, but psychosis is a bit different where the dream itself does crazy shit. Psychosis is in its own league. 

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@electroBeamIt's all purely mental. Sometimes we get so fucking lost in concepts we can't distinguish them from reality. 

Totally agree. I do get lost in concepts sometimes, heaps in the past, now its not so much. But recently its been because the experience itself has been highly intense, and there is a genuine possibility that its a physical health complication as there were overlapping symptoms. Now that my bloods are all good and ive been assessed by a doctor, I doubt those thoughts can stun me again. 

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

How?  How do you explain memories? You've got memories of suffering no?  If you gonna dismiss them you gotta dismiss all memories altogether.. But apparently you didn't because you are using your memory of learning language to type this...

who are you without a past? 

Its really tough to explain insights through language as the insights are highly personal, experiential, usually half baked and the ego distorts the insight as soon as it happens to prevent it from being fully realized to keep you stuck in the matrix, so when its explained, its highly diluted and hard to communicate. 

No no so, I'm not dismissing memories, I just stumbled on the possibility that those memories didn't actually happen. Like for example you were born now and the guy from the matrix made up some fake memories and put it in your brain and then you believed those memories were real but they actually weren't. And that's your entire life. And therefore you're taking all the suffering you did in the past so seriously but in reality they are fake. And when you go through a particular realization its like you went from being in the world to realizing the world is a singularity and an illusion. But this insight just made me realize that you have no evidence to prove that you ever were in the world and that you ever had a realization in the first place. That's all fake aswell. Which was shocking. 

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yeah sure.. Seems like you have an uncertainty fetish.  The tick is you can't ever differentiate.. You just gotta fake that you can and move along. Or stay in your place forever trying to split a a nanometer that you can't even see. 

totally agree with you there, I hate uncertainty and its something I've got to work on. 

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

No no so, I'm not dismissing memories, I just stumbled on the possibility that those memories didn't actually happen. Like for example you were born now and the guy from the matrix made up some fake memories and put it in your brain and then you believed those memories were real but they actually weren't. And that's your entire life. And therefore you're taking all the suffering you did in the past so seriously but in reality they are fake. And when you go through a particular realization its like you went from being in the world to realizing the world is a singularity and an illusion. But this insight just made me realize that you have no evidence to prove that you ever were in the world and that you ever had a realization in the first place. That's all fake aswell. Which was shocking. 

from the view point of the present moment... The past doesn't exist except as a story that is being told in the present moment. The present moment is inescapable. Because literally there is nothing but NOW.   What is not-now is just a concept appearing in NOW. Not sure how does that fit with memories. But as I said you don't need to worry too much about whether your memory is real or not.. Who cares?  Your memories could be fake meaning they represent a false past that didn't happen.. But your memory is always true as a thought in the now. 

The problem only arises when you take a thought to be more than it is. A memory is a thought. As long as it is helping you making sense of yourself as this organism that's navigating its way through space and time.. Then it's a true memory.. If a memory gets you confused or questioning your identity.. Then I would worry about whether this memory actually happened or someone else has planted it on me.   

This whole concept of fake memory doesn't seem so much of an epistemological issue to me.. Compare it to  the problem of fake present lol..How do you know the present itself is not fake?. And the answer to such questions is really.. There is no difference between fake and real. 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Someone here

[Carl-Richard]

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Why does survival exist?

That is like asking "why do people dance?". Because they want to. It's because God wants to. 

The idea that every question must have an answer is an anthropocentric notion. Adopt a cosmocentric perspective.

 

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Why does evolution exist?

Why do people dance to music? You need a beat, a rhythm, a structure, a progression.

 

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

But why this specific self and form right now?

If it's infinite in all dimensions, it must be happening right now. Absolute Infinity contains EVERYTHING!

 

12 hours ago, electroBeam said:

The illusion exists and is true, but confusing the appearance for substance isn't true. Does infinity include confusing appearance for substance?

Confusion, delusion, illusion is all true. Where else could it be if not inside infinity?