Leo's toxic rhetoric and an inner conflict

[Nahm]

@Martin123

Lol. I’m not angry at all. I’m filled with love for you. You aren’t “feeling my energy” at all. You’re feeling your thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives. 

[Shin]

Chill right now guys 

[ChadT]

I struggle with a lot of what Leo says and sometimes how he says it.  He has also said many things, that have made me really think about reality in fundamentally new ways.  Kudos to him for putting himself out there.  Nobody's perfect.  

[Martin123]

@Forestluv @wakeup

 

one last thing. I find it unfair to label Forestluv as the greatest enabler is this dynamic. It was after all him who described the victim blaming dynamic in his comment, while we are all bound to disagree on what we find toxic for ourselves and what is tolerable and what isn’t, Forest’s posts tend to be very feminine oriented and I find that regardless of whether he challenges someone or not, they always bring a beautiful balance to a forum that is brutally and overly masculine, and for that I have gratitude and admiration. 

[Loving Radiance]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I teach a college course that involves intuition, sensing and energetics - including intuition exercises. As well, part of my laboratory research involves intuition and energetics

Is it the one about spirituality (in a scientific way of course)? (I distinctly remember you saying the course synthesizes spiritual systems which you have had direct experience of)

 

@Martin123 What do you think of Leo's response:

Quote

1) George Floyd was resisting arrest very much. Excessive force was used. Trial should occur to sort out the details. And I still support BLM. Yes, the Floyd case was a self-fulfilling prophecy of his fear. But that doesn't justify the excessive use of force. My take on Floyd is nuanced. I did not "victim shame" him.

Do you still accuse Leo that he victim shamed George Floyd? This is a serious matter in my opinion.

[Martin123]

Just now, Loving Radiance said:

Is it the one about spirituality (in a scientific way of course)? (I distinctly remember you saying the course synthesizes spiritual systems which you have had direct experience of)

 

@Martin123 What do you think of Leo's response:

Do you still accuse Leo that he victim shamed George Floyd? This is a serious matter in my opinion.

Well by definition as long as there’s a connection made between GF’s behaviour and his death, it is still victim blaming.

‘Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.’

 

-Wikipedia

 

He did resist arrest.

and he was shot.

to say he was shot due to his resistance is to victimblame.

He resisted arrest because the state of his nervous system caused him to panic. He didn’t die because he panicked, he died because someone shot him. If he panicked somewhere else, he would’ve been alive, therefore the panic had nothing to do with his death, and he has no responsibility for being handled by a cop who pulls a trigger too quickly. 
 

Leo did say that he didn’t want the cop to be called a murderer, which I can get 100% behind, it’s gotta be a stressful environment.

 

I have also heard stories about BLM being overly violent and going overboard which I wouldn’t get behind either.

 

but the GF case was not the point of my post, it was just a part of it to emphasise the overall pattern. 

[Martin123]

Ps for me the posts in the dating section were actually a much bigger deal.

[Preety_India]

 

Just now, Martin123 said:

Ps for me the posts in the dating section were actually a much bigger deal.

How and why 

[Martin123]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

 

How and why 

Because some of his posts could be considered sexual harassment. For example. 

[mandyjw]

Just now, Martin123 said:

Because some of his posts could be considered sexual harassment. For example. 

Confession, I sometimes think the only reason I've stuck around this forum so long as a female is because my Dad is a truck driver and I had to learn at a young age that wonderful loving men sometimes say some horribly unconscious hurtful things about women.

[Martin123]

Just now, Preety_India said:

 

Any examples? 

Be elaborate. What has he exactly said that is toxic 

 

 

Something along the lines 

 

‘Come on girl, I won’t tell, don’t play coy with me I know how dirty you are.’

 

it was a post aimed at Etherial Cat I believe.

 

Another good one was ‘come on dude what is this gay shit’... paraphrasing. 
 

i feel like I’m digging up dirt now I don’t like it so this is all I’m gonna say, Leo’s response to this post was extremely good imo, and I’m only glad for his self-responsibility, I don’t think this is about Leo anymore but about everyone else here. Which isn’t my concern. 

[bejapuskas]

@Martin123  Thank you for creating this thread. I was also thinking about creating a similar one, but I guess I didn't want to write any critique of someone when I haven't yet solved all of my problems (that will never come I guess but whatever) and was also thinking whether I am not missing some important point in this complex matter of internet forum combined with self help combined with social dynamics combined with people coming from different developmental stages... I think this might be an issue for more people, not knowing what they can express, and from some perspective the thing with people getting banned makes it harder, but it also from the perspective of Leo (who spends many of his own resoruces to run this forum) and many others this regulation helps in a big way, because it makes it harder for the forum to turn into something impossible to regulate, which is in my opinion more important, because the individual problems, concerns and views on Leo, everyone can theoretically solve in their own minds. About sexual harassment in the dating section, it is very difficult because in an environment where there are people coming from different cultural backgrounds which this forum is, it is impossible to objectively define what is and what isn't sexual harassment, but also one might argue that this forum's goal is to eliminate ideology and unhealthy cultural and family conditioning, although that is also hard to define when talking about a population of people bigger than one. I also want to say that I am happy for the people who are defending Leo on this thread, because even though it was created with the purpose of constructive criticism, we still haven't covered all the points thoroughly and it is more interesting to have all the different voices in this debate and as somebody has already pointed out, it is hard to stay without any controversy if you are a celebrity (which from one perspective can tell us something about the incredible integrity of some of the spiritual teachers who have very little controversy about themselves).

[Martin123]

Could we just acknowledge that half the reason we follow Leo is because of our massive daddy issues ? (My hands in the air lol ) , something to consider, which I’ve been much aware of. 

[bejapuskas]

6 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Confession, I sometimes think the only reason I've stuck around this forum so long as a female is because my Dad is a truck driver and I had to learn at a young age that wonderful loving men sometimes say some horribly unconscious hurtful things about women.

@mandyjw  because my Dad is a truck driver just like almost any other male driver and I had to learn at a young age that wonderful loving men sometimes say some horribly unconscious hurtful things about women.

[DreamScape]

@Martin123 yeah that's true for me

But I still love leo

Edited October 11, 2020 by DreamScape

[Globalcollective]

@Martin123 I've learned just to follow the teaching and not the teacher, a lot easier that way. 

[mandyjw]

25 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@mandyjw  because my Dad is a truck driver just like almost any other male driver and I had to learn at a young age that wonderful loving men sometimes say some horribly unconscious hurtful things about women.

Not sure I see what you're implying. The reason I specify truck driver is because many truck drivers and construction workers have a culture of talking about women however they'd like because there aren't usually aren't any women around them. He carried his habits of speaking about women home, no thinking about how it sounded and what messages his daughters took from it. 

Similarly, on an internet forum one often imagines that they are talking to a specific type of man, when in reality their words are being read by a huge variety of people, each taking their own personal take a ways from the same statement. 

As a parent I've caught myself doing the same thing many times, talking to an adult lost in the conversation, and completely forgetting that little ears are listening. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by mandyjw

[integral]

On 10/10/2020 at 0:19 PM, Fran11 said:

A common problem is that when you have a perspective which you know is highly concious (like acknowledging systemic racism), then when someone (altough agreeing in the big picture, like Leo with racism) points out micro things which are not conducent to reiforcing that perspective, instead of recognizing it as a broader micro+macro analysis, the mind just tends to misinterpret that as belonging to the opposite pole of your perspective (Leo "neglecting racism" in this case).

That's why it's also so difficult to make a constructive critique of some elements of liberalism without being unthoughfuly taken as a conservative. Which I have experienced.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 0:34 PM, Fran11 said:

About arrogance, if one judges that some spiritual teacher or practicioner has these elements, the most conscious and productive thing to do is to use it as a mirror and search for those traits in yourself.

Trying too hard to prove his/her arrogance to that person, or to someone else, can come from one's own ego's desire to show superiority.

If someome really is arrogant, it is more concious not to take it personally, and to show compassion instead, because that person is suffering from a very narrow and limited state of conscience, at least in that moment.

If I am arrogant, I will suffer life's inevitable blows to my self-image much more and my spiritual progress will be limited. It's my loss really.

 

21 hours ago, Fran11 said:

I like it, that would help making the communication more effective.

And one when one is on the other side, I feel it's healthy to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and asking him/her views on the matter instead of projecting them.

The problem is that the more Tier 1 one's thinking is, the more likely one is to separate people and perspectives using simplistic binary categories ("people are either racists or not-racist, either conservatives or liberals, pro-lockdown or anti-lockdown", etc.)

And also more likely to misunderstand multiple-POVs analysis and the difference beetween talking from a zoomed-in or a zoomed-out .

This is it... 

[Guest SirVladimir]

I just got down to this soaked thread, and I genuinely think it is one of the good ones we had lately.

Many words were spoken, many members took part. I'll make myself heard just shortly.

This forum is a treasure. Holding it up against a relationship dynamic is sort of narrow-minded, even cult-like; as if there was just one sun orbiting around the planet. I have feelings for the people around here too, but you gotta see the bigger picture of management and one's projections.

Leo's approach to teaching is a double-edged sword. If I were to announce with a horn of plenty names of all teachers who take a different approach than Leo, I would be blaring to date. It is your responsibility, as a honorable ego, to see past your own beliefs, and realize the teacher was loving you all along. I do not know a single teacher whom their students would not praise or blindly follow. A portion of people will always do. Despite Leo's intellectual approach, which often points out one's own self-created bulwarks, this is inevitable even for Actualized.org. Just browse the comments on YouTube. There isn't much Leo can do. However more he states the obvious, the bubble only grows.

The forum is sort of an inner circle. This does sound extremely cult-ish (and I indulge in making it seem so), but I genuinely think Leo's approach leads to critical thinking here, to diverse opinions, and certainly beyond the notion of 'blindly following a leader'. It is the subtle things he emphasizes, such as balancing theory with practice, sparking up your connection with being. This is perhaps the most important quantum leap to take. To tie a cord between yourself and being. 

Sometimes I notice a repulsive Green attitude around the forum, among everything, which projects blame outwards instead of recollecting fragments of one's Self; and sort of pushes criticism out of its own personal space. One should balance their time here with practice. It is easily forgotten how beautiful being is. A torn off cord leads to entrapping yourself inside a mental cubicle. It takes years of work, and not just mental masturbation, to grow. When I joined the forum three years ago, I suffered from this - I was all intellect, zero being. You could look it up. But when you finally climb the peakless mountain, the whole forum gains a whole new dimension. I think that we have disputes around here is a healthy sign.

Besides, let us at once ingest mushrooms, and then come back and continue this thread collectively. What do ya think? 

 

[Ananta]

7 hours ago, Origins said:

Breaking hiatus briefly as I got warned (Saturday the 10th of October) by admin for making a "low quality post" by @Ananta, all I said at the time was:

'the only reason why "consciousness" makes an ego is because it does not truly know itself'

Not upset, just humorous. I mean as for the statement itself, its accurate relative to alternative perceptions but its pointless to even try to really justify myself in light of the average posting quality on the forum already. Just as a peaceful objective observation. To give some coin though, just on the statement itself, which is just a starting premise anyhow, its something that needs to be viewed in a nuanced way, because think about it, if "consciousness" as we like to call it, whatever it is, it only creates an "ego" (again, another weird word we've created) in so much as it does not know itself, for everywhere it truly knows its essence its operating from a comparatively pure and fluid place.

That's all I'm stopping by to briefly say. I'm sure the double standards are obvious, no need for me to point out.

I'm all for higher quality posts but there's pro's and con's to that investment, its less valuable if the average is quite low and also even painful because it's not like you're in return getting high quality feedback (on average). But that's fine. There's obvious reasons there as well.

If the admins/mods, etc made and committed themselves to "high quality posts", I'd reciprocate. For me, I certainly wouldn't be warning people regarding low quality posts, instead what I'd be doing is setting an example with high quality posts.

I think every commenter needs to define the relationship they're having with the forum for themselves just so they understand the appropriate boundaries as well as personal responsibility regarding the content they read but first and foremost I think its important for admins/mods, etc to do that. 

I got the impression based on the admins/mods demeanour that whatever I typed didn't really matter too much, so I didn't worry too much about it because I assumed that the admins/mods were just taking the stance of that everyone just needs to take responsibility for how they interpret posts rather than posts themselves being deemed "low quality". If it's a low quality post, which I'd refute, or if an admin/mod had a problem with it, especially given the nature of the post, I'm always willing to go deeper into the subject itself. I want to be challenged in a way that serves my self growth so that would be all good, but I guess at the end of the day, mods/admins, etc need to really ask themselves if they want to be challenged in a way that serves their self growth, which includes their personal ideas. Otherwise, (1) openness to experience yal relating to the warning, and in relation to this overall picture, well, we'd all need to improve our (2) conscientiousness which starts with admins/mods (see the following for ideas on what (1) and (2) mean: https://hexaco.org/scaledescriptions )

By the way @Ananta didn't at all decide to provide any justification after I queried her about the double standard or lack of inquiry in relation to the actual statement. Where's the accountability? No dig at Ananta, we're all just getting on with our lives here but at the end of the day, the admins/mods set the tone so that public behaviour has a chance to mirror the desired outcomes they're also looking for.

Everyone wants "higher quality", but if you really want that as a reality we've all gotta chip in especially admins, mods in otherwise we'll all be a little lax and people who do have the faculties to invest and see the value in investment actually decide to invest.

"On 10/9/2020 at 4:48 AM, Origins said:

● <---- don't see the dot"

 

The warning was for the topic starter post ^ above (about the dot), not for the thread title.

You didn't provide any substance to the 1st actual post of the thread. I found it to be low quality. Modding is a judgment call.

I wasn't going to respond to the PM you sent me where you insult Leo, as some kind of justification for the post you made. I also thought the PM was argumentative and you specifically said you weren't going to acknowledge the warning either.

So, I thought, okay, then don't.

Btw, discussing warnings on open forum is against forum guidelines. PM Leo with your objection to your warning.

Have a nice day.